Anyone used Rointe heaters?

Cardew

Presumably K661an has a large thermal store if using a 12kW immersion heater and running several radiators. How would that be modified to accept solar thermal, or would it require a new thermal store?

In any case as explained above for someone on E7 the savings will never justify the cost of a normal solar thermal; especially as the pump and electronics are powered all day by high rate E7 electricity. At a minimum cost of £3,000? that sum would earn over £100 in interest after tax - more than the savings!

Another reason is with a 'character gaff' and an interior designer owner, the thought of panels on the roof could well be abhorrent.

Cardew

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Interested in your point on prices.

In their brochure, the largest Rointe radiator is only 1.6kW yet the list price is £622 + VAT = £746, their 750watt towel rail costs £836 and the remote controller a further £118.

Plastered all over their brochure is '10 Year Guarantee' yet the small print reads.

uk5.2. ROINTE

[FONT=NTLDCW+DIN-Regular,NTLDCW+DIN-Regular][FONT=NTLDCW+DIN-Regular,NTLDCW+DIN-Regular]guarantees this product is free from defects in material, design and workmanship at the time of its purchase and for the immediately following period of 120 months regarding aluminium and leaktightness, and 24 months for electric and electronic parts.[/FONT][/FONT]

So only 2 years for the parts that are likely to go wrong![FONT=NTLDCW+DIN-Regular,NTLDCW+DIN-Regular]

[/FONT]

bowriver

Vos wrote: »

I've read most of this thread and whilst I fully agree with the informed posters on the physics (i.e. Cardew and the like) I think there a few points that have been overlooked regarding Rointe and the like style heaters (I post not in reply to the original question but more for people who come across this on Google looking for information on the quality of a product and not the manufacturers claims, like me, and may be put off buying for the wrong reasons, incidentally i was looking for something else originally so don't think the following is ill informed), even if they are advertised by immoral swindlers. Once again before i get to my points i agree their claims are ridiculous and i consider companies who advertise in this way, designed to baffle the layman into parting with his hard earned, no better than men in gas board coats who con their way into people’s homes to nick a purse. Anyhow onward...

1. Whilst i agree that any cheap heater will be just as economical as an expensive one, it is also important to make clear that the build quality and aesthetics are also an important factor for many, as an electrical contractor who is often tasked with finding products for clients i have found very few who actually like the looks of anything below the £200 mark.

2. It is also important to note that most cheap heaters, even up to the £150 mark have poor quality thermostats whereas the rointe's and the like have quality digital thermostats, the effect of this is that those with good stats maintain a relatively constant heat in the room where as those with poor quality stats heat the room in peaks and troughs which if the stat is left alone will not affect the running costs as the stat reacts slowly at both extreme's thus balancing the costs. However this brings in a factor previously unmentioned...HUMAN NATURE. It is natural for someone to shed a layer if the room gets too hot, but when the temperature drops some will reach for the thermostat and turn it up, this would have an effect on running costs (not heat per KWH but because the room would be heated more than required), don't misunderstand this would be fairly negligible and nowhere near the ridiculous claims made by the manufacturer and not for their silly "magical material reasons". I make this point more to highlight the better control offered by this style of heater and not because of any potential cost savings.

3. Compared to the panel heater option or some old storage heaters, rointe's and the like run at a lower surface temperature which could be important for some users who have children or perhaps the infirm who might inadvertently fall against the unit (i.e. less chance of serious burns). For the same reason you can dry clothes on them (not recommended from an economy point of view, but let’s not get into the science on that one!!) and they are less likely to ignite combustible materials.

4. I noticed a cost on one of the posts which is misleading (£600 ish + VAT for the biggest rointe unit) this is the list price and whilst i have no doubt some people have been ripped off for this sort of money this is a top end price. If you want a product of this type its best to buy through a (honest) contractor, i know many people think they don't exist but they do. I buy this unit for £356 and sell on with a 5% mark up (as they take very little time to fit), so effectively if you find a decent spark you could have them supplied and fitted for less than you could buy them yourselves.

5. This style can also be very useful in situations where you have electrical load issues. If the heat calc for a room comes out at say 1400W, using panel heaters or most other forms of on peak heating you would have to oversize the heater to 2KW as they are not available in a large variety of sizes where as Rointe's and the like go up in smaller increments therefore you could size the heater more appropriately. Make no mistake oversizing a heater does not mean it will cost more to heat the room, but does mean that when calling for heat it will increase the load on your electrical supply, this can cause overload problems in some cases (this is more often applicable to commercial applications than domestic).

In short i am saying if you are reading this thread because you want to know if Rointe's are a well-made or easy to control etc. then yes they are, in the right application and generally where you don't have access to gas. If you're reading to see if the BS on their webpage can be substantiated then no absolutely not, if you don't believe me read the rest of the posts (by informed people). It’s just a shame they can't use the many attributes of their product as a sales pitch, rather than use such deceitful methods. I for one would recommend them more for the right application if this was the case as they are a nice heater, however as it stands i prefer to put forward a similar Myson product first (as they to my knowledge don't make any stupid claims), and only offer the rointe when aesthetics come into it.

If anyone thinks i am affiliated with Rointe, I’m not; yes i sell their products, but only under duress, in fact when the rep visited my local merchants I took great pleasure in tearing his sales pitch apart!!!

"If anyone thinks i am affiliated with Rointe, I’m not; yes i sell their products, but only under duress, in fact when the rep visited my local merchants I took great pleasure in tearing his sales pitch apart!!! "
you
Sell under "duress", so criminals threats are forcing you to sell ???? stark bildge! Intersting you mentioned price, Cardew alledgedly an industry( or man with google) expert should realise that in the electrical wholesale industry most products have a trade price then discounts of those, and very few people pay trade price so prices for Rointe, Faro, Haverland, electric heating is not as over priced as he would like people to believe. In Fact most of these heating companies products are on par with storage heating and having spent a couple of hours going on all the companies websites (which i believe are all checked by the cap code for advertising ) they dont seem to be too bad, some have testominial from satisified customers and all of them seem to be distributed through reputable wholsalers, this whole thread seems very unbalanced, if you are looking too buy electric heating i suggest you visit the sites for a more balanced view, i work in the electrical wholesale industry and such ill informed posts affects our industry. The likes of Cardew are just trolling and flaming and MSE should really clamp down on their like, he seems to be an "expert" on everything! 17,000 posts plus.........get a life

grahamc2003

bowriver wrote: »

"If anyone thinks i am affiliated with Rointe, I’m not; yes i sell their products, but only under duress, in fact when the rep visited my local merchants I took great pleasure in tearing his sales pitch apart!!! "
you
Sell under "duress", so criminals threats are forcing you to sell ???? stark bildge! Intersting you mentioned price, Cardew alledgedly an industry( or man with google) expert should realise that in the electrical wholesale industry most products have a trade price then discounts of those, and very few people pay trade price so prices for Rointe, Faro, Haverland, electric heating is not as over priced as he would like people to believe. In Fact most of these heating companies products are on par with storage heating and having spent a couple of hours going on all the companies websites (which i believe are all checked by the cap code for advertising ) they dont seem to be too bad, some have testominial from satisified customers and all of them seem to be distributed through reputable wholsalers, this whole thread seems very unbalanced, if you are looking too buy electric heating i suggest you visit the sites for a more balanced view, i work in the electrical wholesale industry and such ill informed posts affects our industry. The likes of Cardew are just trolling and flaming and MSE should really clamp down on their like, he seems to be an "expert" on everything! 17,000 posts plus.........get a life

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. You don't have to be any sort of expert to know that the claims in their bumpf are total nonsense, all you need is about a pass in gcse physics to see that.

Visit the sites for a more balanced view

I assume you mean the manufacturer or agents websites? If so, that must go down as the quote of the century!

Cardew

bowriver wrote: »

"If anyone thinks i am affiliated with Rointe, I’m not; yes i sell their products, but only under duress, in fact when the rep visited my local merchants I took great pleasure in tearing his sales pitch apart!!! "
you
Sell under "duress", so criminals threats are forcing you to sell ???? stark bildge! Intersting you mentioned price, Cardew alledgedly an industry( or man with google) expert should realise that in the electrical wholesale industry most products have a trade price then discounts of those, and very few people pay trade price so prices for Rointe, Faro, Haverland, electric heating is not as over priced as he would like people to believe. In Fact most of these heating companies products are on par with storage heating and having spent a couple of hours going on all the companies websites (which i believe are all checked by the cap code for advertising ) they dont seem to be too bad, some have testominial from satisified customers and all of them seem to be distributed through reputable wholsalers, this whole thread seems very unbalanced, if you are looking too buy electric heating i suggest you visit the sites for a more balanced view, i work in the electrical wholesale industry and such ill informed posts affects our industry. The likes of Cardew are just trolling and flaming and MSE should really clamp down on their like, he seems to be an "expert" on everything! 17,000 posts plus.........get a life

What does it matter if I am an expert, or a man with ‘Google’ if what I(and others) post is accurate? – as it happens I am a Charted Electrical Engineer, but you don’t need to have more than a ‘O’ level in Physics to debunk most of the rubbish on these companies websites.

Regarding prices, I really find your argument that the brochure price is meaningless rather strange. If you go through the various threads you will find that people are indeed paying stupidly high prices for these radiators – over £1,000 a radiator on occasion.

However the biggest criticism of the ‘importers’ and sales firms, is the utter rubbish spouted on some of their websites. The ASA act from time to time, but ‘weasel wording’ still imply to the layman that Heater X filled with some magic ingredient somehow defies the law of physics and produces more heat for their bucks than ‘lesser’ heaters.

Some brochures are an absolute disgrace, and judging by reports companies salesmen’s patter is worse.

The central issue is that ‘your’ heaters produce no more heat, for the same running cost, than any other electrical heater; including the £10 fan heater or £20 oil filled radiator from Argos.

If you care to name a brochure, we could go through 'your' brochure point by point?

Actually if you care to read some of my posts, there clearly is an argument for non-storage electrical heating – particularly in small properties with low heating load – despite its higher running costs. The low installation cost and maintenance free aspects of electrical heaters can make sense when compared to Gas CH with its maintenance/servicing costs and requirement to replace modern condensing boilers every X years.

That advantage flies out of the window when the prices of some of these ‘hyped’ electrical systems are taken into account.

This is a money saving website, people come here for advice. If you have any substantive points to make, or feel I, and others, are in error in our statements, you are free to make them; after all this is a forum.

Lastly it does your case no good to stoop to personal attacks.

Timf

Hi Guys,
I've been reading this thread for over two hours, I am throughly entertained.
Firstly I agree, Ronshitte should be strung up for their marketing material. It is deliberately misleading and designed to confuse people.
If a room requires 2.0 kw to heat, then it requires 2.0kw. You can't get more out than you put in by turning it on and off (let's not get in to heat pumps, although the same applies).
As this is a money saving site, the easiest way to save money on heating, is not by spending money a mythical machine, it is simply to reduce the amount of energy it requires to heat your room. Insulating more and sorting out the drafts, is usually the cheapest.
I've spent years researching and specifying heating systems, the ronite style heaters definitely have some advantages in some situations but they are NOT a new super efficient heating system that is about to change the way we heat our homes.
They do have a larger surface area than traditional electric heaters which means they can deliver the required heat output at a lower temperature, which would deliver some small energy savings, as would the good quality switching system and tight temperature control. I also think they look pretty good, and are easy to install. They do provide a gentle heat which, unlike blow heaters and higher temperature heaters it is almost undetectable.
None of these factors alone could justify the large retail price though, it seems the price is coming down, fingers crossed they will start to fall in line with other electric heating systems.

If you are looking to change your heating system for something that will provide a good return on your investment, this style of heater is not likely to be the answer.

If your on very tight budget and trying to heat a small space, the huge cost of these will far out weigh the small savings you will see on the running costs. As has been said in previous posts, you can buy a cheaper heater and purchase a separate time clock and achieve most of the savings these units offer.

I have used and specified these heaters, they are a good product in the right situation and the results have, in terms of heat quality, the way they look and the efficiencies the control system gives been very positive. I think they are generally a step in the right direction.
For the electricians and sales people selling these at highly inflated prices, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

grahamc2003

Timf wrote: »

Hi Guys,
I've been reading this thread for over two hours, I am throughly entertained.
Firstly I agree, Ronshitte should be strung up for their marketing material. It is deliberately misleading and designed to confuse people.
If a room requires 2.0 kw to heat, then it requires 2.0kw. You can't get more out than you put in by turning it on and off (let's not get in to heat pumps, although the same applies).
As this is a money saving site, the easiest way to save money on heating, is not by spending money a mythical machine, it is simply to reduce the amount of energy it requires to heat your room. Insulating more and sorting out the drafts, is usually the cheapest.
I've spent years researching and specifying heating systems, the ronite style heaters definitely have some advantages in some situations but they are NOT a new super efficient heating system that is about to change the way we heat our homes.
They do have a larger surface area than traditional electric heaters which means they can deliver the required heat output at a lower temperature, which would deliver some small energy savings, as would the good quality switching system and tight temperature control. I also think they look pretty good, and are easy to install. They do provide a gentle heat which, unlike blow heaters and higher temperature heaters it is almost undetectable.
None of these factors alone could justify the large retail price though, it seems the price is coming down, fingers crossed they will start to fall in line with other electric heating systems.

If you are looking to change your heating system for something that will provide a good return on your investment, this style of heater is not likely to be the answer.

If your on very tight budget and trying to heat a small space, the huge cost of these will far out weigh the small savings you will see on the running costs. As has been said in previous posts, you can buy a cheaper heater and purchase a separate time clock and achieve most of the savings these units offer.

I have used and specified these heaters, they are a good product in the right situation and the results have, in terms of heat quality, the way they look and the efficiencies the control system gives been very positive. I think they are generally a step in the right direction.
For the electricians and sales people selling these at highly inflated prices, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

1st post, quite positive about these heaters in a subtle sort of way, but still says they'll save money.

Now where have I seen that before?

Just to correct your 'misundertanding' that a better thermostat will produce savings over some heater with a less accurate thermostat - On average, a worse thermostat will cause the roomm to be both slightly warmer and slightly cooler at different times - balancing out the heat loss, so the same heating requirements and therefore the same running costs (to a very high degree)

Anyhow, a thermostat is a very crude single term controller - if you wantred accurate control of the room temperature, you'd need a 3 term controller (that is using the temperature, the rate of change of temperature (i.e. the first differential of temperature) and the rate of change of the rate of change of temperature (i.e. the second differential) - but there's no requirement for accuarte control of room temperature anyhow - quite inaccurate control is all that is needed.

Timf

Hi Graham,
Sorry for the misunderstanding, in a closed enviroment, the stat would make no difference.
In a real world example with heat loss, a heater, with a greater surface area and a lower running temerature will deliver some very small savings. Would this alone justify buying these highly priced heaters, certainly not. It would take decades to recover the cost of this saving.
You could of course buy a really big cheaper heater to achive the same surface area and run it at a lower temerature,which would would cost a lot less and achieve the same but not look as pretty and be more expensive to install.

I think its disgusting that the manufactures of these heaters are allowed to make the claims they do, as it is complete hog wash.

I was just trying to add a balanced view from someone who has actually used them, yes they are overpriced but they are a small step in the right direction of better control of our heating systems.

They do fit certain situations quite well but it has nothing to do with the claims they will save you a fortune as that claim certainly isnt true.

Vos_2

Cardew,

As with most manufacturers who sell mainly via the electrical wholesaler route the brochure prices are vastly over the top, to enable their target clients (i.e people like me) to sell at a profit otherwise we would not put their product forward to clients as an option, obviously some unreputable contractors use this to rip people off, but make no mistake rointe are not the only ones to market in this way, infact almost every manufacturer of electrical products does this, the list price for a drum of 2.5 T&E cable is £2500ish sold to contractors at 98% discount. With regard to the guarantee yes its another sneaky marketing technique used but then i'm far from defending their marketing, however its still 9 years more on the body and 1 year more on the electronics than you get on any cheaper heaters.

I have to say, with respect, i do disagree with another post of yours, i quote:

"Regarding prices, I really find your argument that the brochure price is meaningless rather strange. If you go through the various threads you will find that people are indeed paying stupidly high prices for these radiators – over £1,000 a radiator on occasion."


"This is a money saving website, people come here for advice. If you have any substantive points to make, or feel I, and others, are in error in our statements, you are free to make them; after all this is a forum."

Why rebuke someone in one paragraph for giving information on how to buy a product much cheaper, and then a few paragraph's later point out this is a money saving website. Of course there are people getting ripped off, thats the way of the world unfortunatley, if they were not then this website would not exist.

Bowriver,

Look up the meaning of duress. I was clearly referring to being under the constraints of the clients asthetic preferences as stated in the paragraph imediatley before.

TallPaul123

Steve17 wrote: »

Hi
These are the same heaters as Calortec (check out Argos book) and various other makes.
They will cost you more than 3 times to run than your night time storage heaters.
A £20 electric heater of any description (convection, oil filled radiator ect) will cost the same.
DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reason why Rointe say their heaters are more efficient than say standard panel heaters is down to the control system they use.

Most commercial heating uses simple on/off control. This is ok but it has hysteresis built in to make it stable.
When it’s cold the thermostat switches the heating element on to raise the temperature.
The ambient temperature increases and over shoots the desired temperature before the control switches off the heating element. The overshoot is energy that is not required as it will raise the ambient above the desired setting.

Then the ambient temperature drops as the heat is lost. The falling temperature will over shoot in the opposite direction. How many times have you felt cold and turned up the heating thermostat?

The reason for the over shoots is due to the fact that the temperature sensing device is not that accurate. This is intentional and to some extent unavoidable. If the sensor was more accurate the control switch would be clicking on and off continually and eventually burn out. Also the heat dissipation will lag in time behind the energy input. But the overshoots are wasted energy.

So we have a control that is full (100%) on or off. Gas central heating works on the same principle, although I think modern boilers monitor the temperature of the water going out to the rads compared to what comes back and adjust the gas valve to suite. (modulation)

With Ronte heaters the control is much ‘tighter’. The temperature sensing device can predict what the temperature will be in the future if it carries on pumping heat into the room at the current rate. And so it can moderate the energy used to prevent an over shoot. The
control device won’t be a simple on/off switch but something like a power transistor. This will have infinite settings between off and fully on. Modulation again.
This is explained on the Rointe website but I don’t think they make a very good link between control and energy efficiency.

So I can see that Rointe heaters are more energy efficient than a standard panel/oil filled heater as most of them don’t have any control, they are just on till you turn off the switch. But not sure if they will be more cost effective that gas central heating.

Hope this helps