Dog dominance

pboae

I live with a dog who was shown who was boss as a pup. Without going into massive detail the end result was an escalation in bad behaviour from both dog and humans. As a general rule, I say wherever possible avoid confrontations with dogs. Because if they call your bluff, teeth, claws and an incredibly strong survival drive are far better weapons than anything nature gave us. And of course most owners would never find it in themselves to use any other sort of weapon against their pet. (Not my dog's first owners sadly).

What we do have in our favour is brains, with a little forethought it's relatively easy to engineer a situation so the dog does what we want, without any confrontation. It's a better learning experience for them, and a safer one for us.

The trick is to train your dog to do what you ask because you are always right, rather than because they are scared of what will happen if they don't. It's the old chestnut about respect being earned, but it still holds true.

So you aim to set things up so that dog is persuaded to do something it doesn't want to do, something it thinks is a really bad idea, like giving up a bone. But when it does it, something really good happens, like getting an even better bone (and generally any bone you have is more valuable than the bone they have, so you can swap them back and forth indefintely).

In theory the dog then learns that you are always right. Even when it doesn't understand how something is going to pan out, and it seems like a really bad idea to the dog, they know from many past experiences that when they do what you ask, good things happen. Things that are better than whatever it was they were trying to protect. So in future they will do what you ask, not because they are scared of what you'll do if they don't, but because they are entirely happy to defer judgement to you because you know best.

Eventually it becomes second nature to them, and they will do as you ask in virtually any situation, without even stopping to think about it. Rather than weighing up the options as to whether they can get away with it or not.

That is the basis of positive training, and aside from the bonus that it really works, it is so much nicer for both of you to train calmly and with rewards, rather than with the shouting and punishments of pack based theories.

We have pet dogs for the pleasure they bring, but if you turn training into a battleground, it eats away at all the good things dog ownership brings.

I couldn't be near my dog when he had food initially. But gradually building him up, from, swapping empty bowls for full bowls, to adding tasty food to his bowl, we got there in the end. I'm not sure if I could walk up to him and actually grab a bone off him without a growl now, because it's not something I would ever do. But I could get him to come to me and give me the bone without resistance. The end result is still the same, I get the bone, but without the resentment and hassle of doing it by force.

suki1964

ixwood wrote: »

FWIW From my personal experience I do believe in the pack theory. Dogs were specially chosen for domesticating originally because they're a pack animal with a structure and a leader.

As people are always pointing out, try and tell a cat what to do!

Though having said that, food guarding isn't down to rank/dominance. In packs, possessed food is usually exempt from dominance. That is, any rank of dog will protect a meal they already posses. They may get intimidated into dropping it, if it really came to it, but they won't just automatically give it up to a higher rank as a matter of course.

Hmmm

I was taught that dogs chose to come to humans, we didnt domestic them, they came to us cos we were the ones with heat and food

ixwood

Surely if that was the case we'd now have guide squirrels, guard robins and sniffer mice etc?

lostinrates

ixwood wrote: »

Surely if that was the case we'd now have guide squirrels, guard robins and sniffer mice etc?

Not at all necessarily!

Animal lead domestication (for dogs and cats especially) is IMO the more likely. The reason we wouldn't have, for example guide squirrels is because a; the nature of a squirrel v. some pretty super breeds of dog and b: we have developement preety good training techniques for trianing dogs.

One of our key skills is reasoning and exploitation, we are good at identifying skills and developing techniques for those. We have identified that (breeds of dog we have developed through selection for skill) make good guide dogs.

As for guide robins, a lot of people do use geese....because their nature is compatable with the task and thus we capatilise on it.

CaroLondon

All this staring at dogs lark is a bit of a surprise to me, my William (God bless him, a total mutt, but best dog I ever had) and I used to quite often lie on the floor head to head for hours and stare at each other to see who would look away first.

Thinking about it I think I have done this with all of our dogs over the years, but William was the King of stare, if he was starting to get bored he would poke his tongue out knowing I'd laugh and therefore look away.

He loved to play it, and would often initiate the game, by staring at me (adoringly I might add) then looking away when I looked back, tail thumping away, this would go on for a few mins until he would jump off the sofa and "assume the position" his tail would wag all the way through, and the "game" would always finish with big belly rubs and me getting pounced on with big slobbery kisses.

Darn I miss him.

Caro :-)

lostinrates

CaroLondon wrote: »

All this staring at dogs lark is a bit of a surprise to me, my William (God bless him, a total mutt, but best dog I ever had) and I used to quite often lie on the floor head to head for hours and stare at each other to see who would look away first.

Thinking about it I think I have done this with all of our dogs over the years, but William was the King of stare, if he was starting to get bored he would poke his tongue out knowing I'd laugh and therefore look away.

He loved to play it, and would often initiate the game, by staring at me (adoringly I might add) then looking away when I looked back, tail thumping away, this would go on for a few mins until he would jump off the sofa and "assume the position" his tail would wag all the way through, and the "game" would always finish with big belly rubs and me getting pounced on with big slobbery kisses.

Darn I miss him.

Caro :-)

He sounds a sweetie.

IMO, the problem is, while things in general might not be ''perfect'' its impossible to corectly evaluate them in isolation...body language, the length/type of relationship with the animal, in fact so many variables too long to list.

I KNOW I make some transgressions when working with my animals, and for me the idea is that trying to minimise them makes communication between us better. The trainers I really admire are still not perfect, they are just much better at minimising these little communication blocks I think. Like speaking a foreign language with a great accent and perfect grammar, while some of us still keep a dictionary, or even a phrase book, in our handbags

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

I think that at least the OP has asked for advice, whether we all agree with what should or shouldn't be done in response.

It's better than the ex OH this week.

He got a 3-5 year old neutered male Dobie from the RSPCA about 4 months ago. (I was horrified that he had another dog, full stop, never mind that they never saw past the pretence/credit card to actually check what he is really like with animals - and women, but hey, they can't do everything). The dog was allegedly rehomed by force (or whatever the correct phrase is when the RSPCA takes someone's pet) because he was fat and wasn't being exercised.

The dog was normal weight when they let him have him. An amazing weight loss in the 3 weeks they claimed to have had him in their kennels. He now apparently looks very healthy. All well and good so far.

But he runs off and goes AWOL if there's a whiff of a stream/river nearby (doesn't go in though) and has been found rummaging around the back of a few dodgy takeaways, although he doesn't appear to have eaten anything.

I did check whether ex was giving the dog a wallop for coming back - he says no. I asked if he was walked hungry, so he would want to come home for breakfast, or if that doesn't work, if he is searching for food, feeding him first. Apparently the dog is completely unmotivated by food, whether dinner or treats, since he came under the miraculous command of the ex.

I suspect that he was after rats and the RSPCA forgot to mention the bit about him being used to killing them, whether for food or because it was all he could do as a guard dog, and because DD doesn't live there, they decided he would be fine, so didn't mention his real history.

So it's not so much a lack of food or exercise, or females in heat, or loving water, but a fundamental instinct in him that isn't going to be quelled by ex doing the 'It's me or the dog' walking backwards and forwards by the gate that leads to the river for 10 minutes on one Saturday and then giving up because he tried to make a break for it 5 seconds later. Especially bearing in mind that the dog's only been there about 20 weeks and it is home alone in the kitchen from 7am until 5pm every day, then spends the night alone too.

Obvious answer to me is put the animal on a lead and walk him more often. But that's 'no fun'. That insults the power of the ex OH. It means he can't sit and have a smoke whilst the dog runs and plays (a smoke of what exactly, I didn't ask). And moreover, he has complained a couple of times that the dog likes his girlfriend more than him.

So what is he going to do? Send him back to the RSPCA? Oh no. That would suggest that ex is inadequate in some way for having to keep a large breed of dog on an extending lead in a public space. Get help from his mother, who is a dog trainer (but only of nice middle class, Daily Mail reading retrievers - I am not kidding - but she might make an exception for this dog)? Nah. Get in touch with a Dobie Rescue? Nah.

His expert solution to the problem of the dog liking his girlfriend, DD and chasing rats more than him is - I was spitting feathers after he told me - because it's no life for a dog on a lead - is to

have the poor animal PTS.

££($@(%*!@(&!^£*!*$&%(!@&$%(!@$(%&!$&%*$&%*&£$*&%*!@&$*%&$*&*$&**&!

I refuse to rescue the creature. I can't and I won't. (new mantra: I can't and I won't I can't and I won't I can't and I won't)

But I really really despise him at this moment in time.

[muttering I can't and I won't I can't and I won't at all times of potential weakness, like when I think of the poor thing trusting him and being killed to salve his ego]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

[I can't and I won't I can't and I won't....]

foreign_correspondent

Jojo - if that is a real possibility, please do contact the RSPCA - they have a responsibility to take the dog back, there is no sane reason for the poor animal to be put to sleep - it poses no risk to anyone, and is being left alone for far too long.

Whilst I don't have that much faith in the RSPCA as an organisation, some of the local branches are really very good, and it is worth a try at least.