Dog dominance

BeenieCat

I was about to post this in the dog bones thread but would ahve probably taken it too far off topic...

I've been getting her occasional lamb bones from Morrisons, today they had none but had beef rib bones instead which were cheaper and look a lot better.

Anyway i just gave one to my dog and a few mins later my son walked past her, and she growled!! I won't accept that at all, so i went with him to take the bone away from her a few times to try and show her who is boss, and i must admit for the first time ever i was a little worried of her snapping at us. She didn't, but i gave her it back after a few times anyway.

Looking at this:

http://www.bcrescue.org/dominancetest.html

I would say overall she knows her place in the 'pack', she moves out of the way for us, never tries to take anything from us BUT there are a few things she does that i want to curb. I was never worried about her snapping but i have a new baby due next week and although she won't be left alone with baby ever (she already has restricted access with safety gates) but having seen her reaction over the bone i think she might be getting a bit big for her boots!!

Ruby_Moon

A dog WILL be posessive of a bone but please don't deprive her of the absolute rapture that a dog goes into chewing a good bone.
Give your dog the bone in a situation where you can supervise or when he is alone. Maybe when you are watching TV in an evening or after your son goes to bed?
She is not getting too big for her boots at all, just showing perfectly normal behaviour with a bone.
As I say, if you arrange it well everyone is happy.

Lobell

Why did you want to take it off her?

Put it like this...if I'd just set a big steak dinner (or whatever your favourite is) down to you and then five minutes later tried to take it off you, would you give it up without even a grumble?

Her behaviour is nothing to so with dominance or 'being too big for her boots'. She was resource guarding as dogs are hard wired to do. The growl was a warning to back off from her precious bone...you are creating a dangerous situation for yourself if you do not heed her warning as her next option is to bite. If she learns that warning don't get heeded, she's likely to bite without giving a warning first...that's not a situation you want to get to.

I teach my dogs from day 1 that giving precious things up to me is no big deal by swapping for something of equally high value. So, initially I might have 2 bones and give one. After 10 minutes or so, I'll offer the second one, but remove the first one before giving the second....same with toys, chews and anything else. They soon learn that they don't have to guard because there's plenty more where that came from. Once I'm confident that they'll give anything up to me (I only do this in case they pick up something potentially dangerous that I need to get away from them) I don't generally take stuff off them when there's no need.

By the way, I'd strongly advise you ignore the contents of that link. That's based on a very outdated theory that has been widely debunked now.

BeenieCat

Thanks for the reply, but i'm not happy to let her growl at people if she has a bone, no matter what. That growl could become a bite quite easily, and although she doesn't always have a bone to be possessive over i would like to be in a position where my dog is submissive enough to hand the bone over when told, or certainly not growl when someone walks past.

I'd like to stroll over and take it off her if i wanted to, without worrying about her snapping my hand off!

BeenieCat

Lobell wrote: »

Why did you want to take it off her?

Put it like this...if I'd just set a big steak dinner (or whatever your favourite is) down to you and then five minutes later tried to take it off you, would you give it up without even a grumble?

Her behaviour is nothing to so with dominance or 'being too big for her boots'. She was resource guarding as dogs are hard wired to do. The growl was a warning to back off from her precious bone...you are creating a dangerous situation for yourself if you do not heed her warning as her next option is to bite. If she learns that warning don't get heeded, she's likely to bite without giving a warning first...that's not a situation you want to get to.

I teach my dogs from day 1 that giving precious things up to me is no big deal by swapping for something of equally high value. So, initially I might have 2 bones and give one. After 10 minutes or so, I'll offer the second one, but remove the first one before giving the second....same with toys, chews and anything else. They soon learn that they don't have to guard because there's plenty more where that came from. Once I'm confident that they'll give anything up to me (I only do this in case they pick up something potentially dangerous that I need to get away from them) I don't generally take stuff off them when there's no need.

By the way, I'd strongly advise you ignore the contents of that link. That's based on a very outdated theory that has been widely debunked now.

I want her to know we are in charge! I am not about to take it off her for no reason. Maybe my ideas are quite old fashioned and over the top then, i just feel she should always be bottom of the pack, whether she has food or not! When she was a pup my ex would train her by taking away her food, rewarding her if she gave it up. Maybe it's because of him i feel this way, maybe it's him who is wrong!

I don't feel i should be making deals with her, swapping items etc, but she shouldn't growl at us

Ruby_Moon

BeenieCat wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, but i'm not happy to let her growl at people if she has a bone, no matter what. That growl could become a bite quite easily, and although she doesn't always have a bone to be possessive over i would like to be in a position where my dog is submissive enough to hand the bone over when told, or certainly not growl when someone walks past.

I'd like to stroll over and take it off her if i wanted to, without worrying about her snapping my hand off!

A car isn't dangerous unless its moving so when you come across moving cars, you keep your children away from them. You don't expect the car to know your child is precious.
Just because its your dog and you love her, doesn't mean she understands.
YOU need to learn not to give her a bone in a situation where she can be disturbed.

Lobell

BeenieCat wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, but i'm not happy to let her growl at people if she has a bone, no matter what. That growl could become a bite quite easily, and although she doesn't always have a bone to be possessive over i would like to be in a position where my dog is submissive enough to hand the bone over when told, or certainly not growl when someone walks past.

I'd like to stroll over and take it off her if i wanted to, without worrying about her snapping my hand off!

If heeded, the growl will NOT become a bit. It is only if the warning is not heeded that you leave her with no option but to bite.

Why do you want to give her something and then take it away from her again? If you try to, you will reinforce what she already thinks...that you are a threat to her bone. If you continue with your current mindset, you (or someone else in the household) WILL get bitten.

If you're not prepared to put in the work to build her trust around bones, then I suggest that you simply don't give her bones. It has nothing to do with dominace/submission & pack behaviour.. It has to do with knowing what your dog is telling you and either respecting that, or working to change the behaviour.

kaya

My GSD is the same, soppy as anything and will take her bone and give it to anybody in the room if asked to do so with a happy wagging tail, but if she thinks your gonna take it without asking she will curl her lips up and grumble, she has never had anything taken form her or been teased, just an inbuilt doggy instinct, not something i have experienced with any of my mums many dogs either(she was a breeder), when we have a kiddy the dog will only get her bone at night time when there is nobody to grump at, its just common sense really

Ruby_Moon

BeenieCat wrote: »

I want her to know we are in charge! I am not about to take it off her for no reason. Maybe my ideas are quite old fashioned and over the top then, i just feel she should always be bottom of the pack, whether she has food or not! When she was a pup my ex would train her by taking away her food, rewarding her if she gave it up. Maybe it's because of him i feel this way, maybe it's him who is wrong!

I don't feel i should be making deals with her, swapping items etc, but she shouldn't growl at us

Tell you what then love, as you don't seem to acknowledge anything else, why don't you give the dog up? Put her into rescue? Yeah, thats the easiest way. She won't be able to growl at you then! :rolleyes:

Lobell

BeenieCat wrote: »

I want her to know we are in charge! I am not about to take it off her for no reason. Maybe my ideas are quite old fashioned and over the top then, i just feel she should always be bottom of the pack, whether she has food or not! When she was a pup my ex would train her by taking away her food, rewarding her if she gave it up. Maybe it's because of him i feel this way, maybe it's him who is wrong!

I don't feel i should be making deals with her, swapping items etc, but she shouldn't growl at us

You are not making deals with her...you are building her trust in you.

You really need to forget the pack therories of dominance and submission. Your dog KNOWS that she is a dog and that you are not. She therefore knows that you are not a 'pack'. The sooner you realise the same thing, the better for you all.

BeenieCat

But i'm not teaching her that we're a threat to her bone. This only just happened for the first time tonight, we'd not taken her bones away before. The reason i took it off her after that was to try and make sure she wasn't going to bite us, and that she was going to get it back. I didn't take it off her to punish her for the growl.

I am surprised that no one can see my POV here, my dog doesn't create the rules, whether she has a bone in her mouth or not. I don't want to stop giving her bones, i want her to be happy to hand it over when commanded to. I guess the best way to do this is ensure she learns she'll always get it back?