Staffies

foreign_correspondent

suki1964 wrote: »

All dogs in reputable rescues are neutered before re homing aren't they? Or a voucher is given to have it done asap if the dog is too young at time of rehoming - Im sure thats what you tell everyone when the neutering question raises its head

Micro chipping? As I have pointed out in another post - microchips do nothing and are easily cut out

Licience? Dog licience? How much? Fiver as it is here? Then in that case - I can afford as many as I need. £200 - there will be more and more and more dogs in rescue and even more dogs are bred by back yard breeders

Staffies in rescue are because they are the most popular dog in the UK - overtaken the lab even and whilst they are popular you will get puppy farmers and every tom !!!!!! and harry breeding them for cash

So they are a victem of their own success you could say

Only way to stop them turning up in rescue? Stop them from being so popular or ban the breeding of them outright and say goodby to a breed

Yes, dogs from reputable rescues are neutered - but vast amounts of staffs are not neutered, as they have never been through a rescue, or arrive in rescue after they have been bred from. Council pounds, sadly, do not neuter before rehoming strays.

I remember claims on here that microchips were easily cut out of dogs a while ago - one of the vets on here said it certainly would not be easy to do, and not one reliable report of this ever happening to a dog was found...

.. unlike some other identity markers, like those in the ears of cows, and greyhounds, which are indeed easy to remove.

I do think it is important that we deal in facts not fiction here - and this sort of rumour (that chips are easily cut out with a penknife!) is likely to put people off using this reliable and safe form of animal identification.

I am not sure that popularity is the sole causal factor for the staffordshire problem either - I do think there are issues around socio-ecomonic factors, knowledge and education, the image of the breed, and lack of effective strategies to deal with the complexities of the problem.

Banning the breed would most likely not be effective either - there are still pit bulls and their crosses in the UK despite the being banned about 15 years ago.

suki1964

UKTigerlily wrote: »

Umm I didn't search for a King Charles, I researched breeds & that came out as the best suited, but never actually looked for one as you'd know if you ever read anything, I went to a Rescue & asked for a Dog that fit the characteristics of a Cav. And i've had Staffs before so it's not as if i've just come across the breed, as you'd also know if you ever read anything, i've also said in this thread that not everyone wants a Staff & why should they. Pups in rescue won't have been trained by anyone else, some from breeders will have been trained already to do many things so that's irrelevant. This thread is about Staffs, not Spaniels, so of course we are talking about STAFFS. I'm also not 'singing the praises of the breed' except you hasve selective reading, i've said about my Dog, if you ever read you'd know as a whole the breed wouldn't be right for me & that's why i'd ruled out having one when I was looking. I suggest you start a Spaniels thread & keep out of this as you have no idea about anything it'd seem & can't read what people are actually saying

I will post where I like, why would I want to start a spaniel thread?

Have no idea about anything? Hmmmmmm Pot and kettle here Id say

I can read very well thank you and what I can read is you are so blinkered you are not open to any discussion what so ever. What I can see is that when it comes to this board you have it your way or no way

STAFFIES ARE NOT WORKING DOGS


Working dog as in the breed - ie labs, retrieviers, spaniels etc
Breeds that genectically have the make up to work a specific way,

Get it into your head that if someone is passionate about their sport or even breed of dog, they will want the best dog they can get - not some unknown untried dog from a rescue. They will want a five generation pedigree to prove the provenance of the pup they are buying they will want to know and to be able to trace and check back on any inherent illnesses they will want to know what family traits are there

Yes you can get the breeds Im talking about in rescue, no one is ever doubting that. Im trying to tell you that just because the breed is labeled working it doesnt make the individual dog suitable to work. Yes there may be the odd example of someone talking on a resuce and making a fine working dog, but thats rare. Although I guess your reletive is doing very well on the circuit seeing as you mention it?

I have a cocker, hes a "working breed" but hes been so selectively bred that he himself couldnt find his way out of a paper bag and if a rabbit or bird stepped up and punched him on the nose he still wouldnt react. I chose to get a cocker with those traits as I didnt want a dog who was bred for working and then kept as a pet being driven slowly demented being kept as a house dog. I have picked up the pieces once too often when people have bought a pup or got a dog from rescue that has not been suitable to their lifestyle, getting unknowingly from working stock, then trying to keep the pup in a flat with a 20 min walk a day. One look at a five generation pedigree ( that piece of paper some on here mock) would tell anyone (even a novice) what sort of pup they have got

If I had gone to rescue I wouldnt have any idea of the sort of dog I was getting. Yes I would know I was getting a dog with the general charecteristic of the breed but as for anything else - pot luck. And when you are working a dog you dont do pot luck


As for police dogs, yes they use certain breeds, Very few are taken from rescue because they too have certain needs in a dog, Usually the police, fire service and army will advertise for digs which have certain traits they are looking for. Their training is such that they cant be trying to train dogs that just dont have it in them just because they are labelled "Working" The need to work needs to be bred into them - and thats done by selective breeding by breeders who know what they are doing


Now Im just so haappy thay your wee chaya is making you and others so happy but please stop making yourself look foolish and even further proving to others that you know sod all by insisting that she is a working dog. She is a PAT DOG which just proves that you know how to keep her under control on lead and shes ok being petted ( like any good owner and dog can manage) and you paid for a wee certificate and sticker to say you can go visit in hospitals

mrcol1000

Can I just point out that microchips are implanted under the skin between the shoulder blades of dogs normally. However over time they natually move so as someone has used these scanners you do have to scan the whole dog sometimes. Also as dogs don't always sit still for strangers its a lot harder than it sounds. So if you were going to cut them out you might have to slice the dog to pieces before you find it. I guess the only way you could do it would be to do it straight after it was done but then that would be a bit pointless getting it done

foreign_correspondent

suki1964 wrote: »

Do you know what happens to microchips in dogs that need rid off? They are cut out. Usually with a pen knife causing agony for the dog in question

You know when cows die and the farmer cant be doing with going through the channels because its a disease thats going to effect his income? The ears with the tags on are chopped off before the cow is dumped

Microchips are just something that pet owners have been conned into thinking they need. Your dog gets lost and you are a loving owner you move hell and high water to find it, you dont give a dam then you wouldn't have had the pet chipped. Dog is stolen for breeding or fighting - then you can bet the chip is cut right out

Can you find any information that this happens on a regular basis? I can find only one news report of this happening... in Taiwan. Hardly strikes me as being common practice as you suggest...

Ear ID - yes, I agree - see earlier post.

If you google 'greyhounds ears cut off' - this sadly does happen sometimes when unscrupulous breeders/trainers dump unwanted greyhounds...who if course have identifying ear tatoos, and there is plenty of evidence of this in news reports.

However your assertation re: Microchips that "They are cut out. Usually with a pen knife causing agony for the dog in question" and "Dog is stolen for breeding or fighting - then you can bet the chip is cut right out" does not seem to be substantiated with evidence.

As for owners being 'conned into believing they need a microchip' - many stray or stolen dogs would be reunited with owners if they were chipped - and a chipped straying dog is often returned directly home by the dog warden, rather than going to the pound and incurring a release fee. Dogs sometimes turn up many miles from where they went missing, and without ID they are unlikely to be reunited. A collar or tag can be slipped, or lost, a chip is permanent.

The dogs trust is currently campaigning for compulsory microchipping - they believe that:

The introduction of Compulsory Microchipping would:

• Enable lost or straying dogs to be reunited promptly with their owners – meaning less dogs will be put to sleep at council pounds
• Permanently identify a dog in such a way that is virtually impossible to alter or remove - a clear advantage for dogs that are stolen
• Enable clear identification of the dog’s owner when prosecution is being considered for dog thieves and antisocial behaviour
• Significantly decrease the workload of all those dealing with stray dogs
• Reduce kennelling costs and save time
• Allow puppies bred illegally or inappropriately on puppy farms to be traced to their source
• Significantly increase the welfare of racing greyhounds as they could be traced back to their owners whilst they are racing and once they retire

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/press_office/pressreleases/2009/compulsory-microchipping.htm

ETA - without wanting to get too much into the rescue/working dog thing, I have heard of projects using rescued dogs to take on some hightly specialised working roles, including hearing dogs for the deaf, diabetes hypo alert dogs etc... I think lots of people can assess an individual dogs temprement and suitability to work without needing a pedigree to do so.
http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/dogs.php
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Diabetes-type2/Pages/news.aspx?ListID=17&CurrentPage=3&NewsId=%7BF386B81C-5212-4C39-BE8F-3776BBB2056A%7D

suki1964

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

Yes, dogs from reputable rescues are neutered - but vast amounts of staffs are not neutered, as they have never been through a rescue, or arrive in rescue after they have been bred from. Council pounds, sadly, do not neuter before rehoming strays.

I remember claims on here that microchips were easily cut out of dogs a while ago - one of the vets on here said it certainly would not be easy to do, and not one reliable report of this ever happening to a dog was found...

.. unlike some other identity markers, like those in the ears of cows, and greyhounds, which are indeed easy to remove.

I do think it is important that we deal in facts not fiction here - and this sort of rumour (that chips are easily cut out with a penknife!) is likely to put people off using this reliable and safe form of animal identification.

I am not sure that popularity is the sole causal factor for the staffordshire problem either - I do think there are issues around socio-ecomonic factors, knowledge and education, the image of the breed, and lack of effective strategies to deal with the complexities of the problem.

Banning the breed would most likely not be effective either - there are still pit bulls and their crosses in the UK despite the being banned about 15 years ago.

Because dogs that do have their chips removed arent usually seen by vets perhaps?

People who do remove chips from dogs arent usually looking at the welfare of the dog, if the dog has been stolen for dog fighting or illegal breeding


There are very few dogs ( staffs in particular ) that are re homed from pounds, they are usually destroyed unless a rescue can find room for them so I cant see that making a huge difference

Basically at the end of the day - supply is outstripping demand - hence the rescues. No matter what you think about " social and economic factors" theres back yard breeders jumping on the band wagon to make a fast buck - sure didnt you all get to see the programme just the other week? Whilst that breed is so popular it will continue

foreign_correspondent

the local pounds rehome a lot of staffies round here - most of their dogs are staffs, and most are homed direct from the pound, unneutered, sadly.

I am sure if chips being dug out was happening regularly, we would be seeing some evidence of this.... from vets, welfare organisations etc... people who fight dogs do take them to the vets, apparently, (probably only when absolutely necessary though) usually under the pretence of them having been involved in an accidental dog fight.

Social and economic factors are part of this problem - I felt this was clear enough in the programe the other week - (seven pups for seven people)

suki1964

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

ETA - without wanting to get too much into the rescue/working dog thing, I have heard of projects using rescued dogs to take on some hightly specialised working roles, including hearing dogs for the deaf, diabetes hypo alert dogs etc... I think lots of people can assess an individual dogs temprement and suitability to work without needing a pedigree to do so.
http://www.hearingdogs.org.uk/dogs.php
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Diabetes-type2/Pages/news.aspx?ListID=17&CurrentPage=3&NewsId=%7BF386B81C-5212-4C39-BE8F-3776BBB2056A%7D

Rather a joke that seeing as that where I came into the discussion and you chose to put your oar in

"without wanting to get too much into the rescue/working dogs thing" :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

You are hilarious

So much so theres those who actually ask if you and tiger are one and the same person

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Yes I know too well that some dogs from rescues are trained for specific work as described there - but once again you are taking the term working dog to mean something other then what I and the first poster who said she got her dog from a breeder know as working dogs

suki1964

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

the local pounds rehome a lot of staffies round here - most of their dogs are staffs, and most are homed direct from the pound, unneutered, sadly.

I am sure if chips being dug out was happening regularly, we would be seeing some evidence of this.... from vets, welfare organisations etc... people who fight dogs do take them to the vets, apparently, (probably only when absolutely necessary though) usually under the pretence of them having been involved in an accidental dog fight.

Social and economic factors are part of this problem - I felt this was clear enough in the programe the other week - (seven pups for seven people)

Let me see, did I even say it was a regular occurrence? I said that it was a way around - and it will happen if compulsory micro chipping is put into force

And yes you have made it all too clear in so many of your posts what you mean by social and economic factors

foreign_correspondent

I don't think microchips being cut out is even an occasional occcurance though. It certainly does not seem to be enough of a risk to say that it is a reason to avoid microchipping, which could have many positive impacts on dog welfare.

Out of interest, do you feel there are any measures that could be put into place to reduce the numbers of staffies (or indeed other breeds) ending up in the pounds and rescues?

suki1964

Yes, promote responsible breeding.

Educate people on how to find a breeder and stop shooting down those of us who try

Responsible and respectable breeders do not add to the numbers in rescue no matter what you keep trying to make out on here with your links to some very dodgy breeders

You promote responsible breeding and with that comes the educating of the breed to those who in the past thought all dogs were equal and were disposable commodities