Planning Permission - makes no sense?

wallbash

& if i was looking at a property that had had all that work done to it

But when you would be looking to buy , the OP says he would have converted back to two dwellings , so you would never know.

Yes we all agree about sticking to Building regs , also Fire doors etc

Even counting the costs of the work and fire doors would still think its viable.

edgex

pusscat wrote: »

you would also need a good fire door, so you wont be having an open plan kitchen/diner, as all you would have is an opening the width of one door between the 2, which would then have a fire door in it.

That is interesting - thanks. Both kitchens have fire doors onto the stairwells - would this be enough?


Hmmm - thanks - interesting to hear

what your talking about is creating an opening between 2 seperate dwellings. the party wall acts as a fire barrier between the 2, so any openings in that wall would have to continue that barrier.



having just looked it up
Separating walls between dwellings should have at least 60 minutes fire resistance


so the fire door would need to be a 60minute fire door, as well as the intumescent strips.
so its going to cost more than the one specced above
also, it would need to be self-closing, & you wont be able to prop it open.

the lintel used above the doorway would also need to meet the 60min requirement

punknzippy

a lot of good points reguarding fire and insurance have been raised here , as in your post you want to remove the wall to make one big room not a doorway , as it still will remain 2 propertys may i suggest visiting your local citizens advice as they will tell you how to go about the legalitys of the insurance etc but as in removing the wall then its a simple case of getting in a good builder as you will need steel rsjs to support the remaining upper wall and everything that sits on it , it is a basic job for any decent builder to make an opening in any wall . as for the fire doors then they may need to be fitted into the existing doorways into the kitchen diner , but building control should explain that part as they wont sign it off unless building regs are met

edgex

wallbash wrote: »

But when you would be looking to buy , the OP says he would have converted back to two dwellings , so you would never know.

Yes we all agree about sticking to Building regs , also Fire doors etc

Even counting the costs of the work and fire doors would still think its viable.

er, i cant see how they wont be able to tell any prospective purchaser of the work done, or even have it appear somewhere in the HIP

what if the re-instatement work isnt done properly, & there is then a structural problem?



dont forget, the wall in question isnt structural for just 1 property, but 2, so theres 2 future purchasers that it could/would affect.

edgex

punknzippy wrote: »

a lot of good points reguarding fire and insurance have been raised here , as in your post you want to remove the wall to make one big room not a doorway , as it still will remain 2 propertys may i suggest visiting your local citizens advice as they will tell you how to go about the legalitys of the insurance etc but as in removing the wall then its a simple case of getting in a good builder as you will need steel rsjs to support the remaining upper wall and everything that sits on it , it is a basic job for any decent builder to make an opening in any wall . as for the fire doors then they may need to be fitted into the existing doorways into the kitchen diner , but building control should explain that part as they wont sign it off unless building regs are met

this isnt just any wall though

its a party wall that is structural for 2 properties
its also a fire wall




OP:
your concerned about having to go outside to get between the 2 if all thats done is a gate put in or a fence panel removed
what if you fitted a veranda across the back of the 2 properties, to provide a cover for when going outside

there is then absolutely nothing unusual about it, its cheap, its very easily done, it dosnt affect the fabric of the properties, it wont need building control in, is unlikely to need PP

punknzippy

edgex wrote: »

this isnt just any wall though

its a party wall that is structural for 2 properties
its also a fire wall

its still built in either brick or concrete block and is either 9" solid or 2 4"skins of brick or block and can still be opened up and supported by a steel rsj .

andrew-b

What's the difference though between steels inserted for just a window in an external wall to inserting them in party wall which require 60 minutes fire resistance - assuming all holes around them are filled with cement?

Not dissing your argument Edgex but i genuinely want to know and will the costs be much different.

Hole/gate in the fence as suggested is the simple solution but skirting around the debate really and so a bit of a cop out as to whether it's actually allowable by the regs to join two properties by a door in this way.

nixinixi

Could you put up a conservatory that spans both properties?

Just a thought, if you open up the garden by removing fence panels, you could then have a conservatory linking both properties..if you know a clever builder they may be able to design it so it can then be spilt in two in 5 years time relatively easily so then you will have two properties each with a conservatory. Obviously there is quite a cost implication in this, but it somehow seems less drastic than opening up the two properties if it is only short term. Even if you worked out you had to throw it away at the end it means you haven't had to mess with the structure of the property and you would know the costs now...and worse case scenario you can still lock each other out!

wallbash

There must have been cases in the past when two houses have been knocked into one. In fact I saw Tommy Walsash do I one tv. Also small farm labourers cottage get the once over , whats the difference.

Two kitchens ?? , but some larger Jewish Homes have two kitchens , makes keeping dietary laws easier.

As I first posted .... love this forum:rotfl:

edgex

andrew-b wrote: »

What's the difference though between steels inserted for just a window in an external wall to inserting them in party wall which require 60 minutes fire resistance - assuming all holes around them are filled with cement?

Not dissing your argument Edgex but i genuinely want to know and will the costs be much different.

Hole/gate in the fence as suggested is the simple solution but skirting around the debate really and so a bit of a cop out as to whether it's actually allowable by the regs to join two properties by a door in this way.

the lintel above a window is only structural for 1 property
the party wall is structural for 2
assuming the joists run the same as mine, that wall is holding up joists on both sides of it, as well as the main roof beams
so, theres a lot more sat on that party wall than on an external wall

& its not just fitting a lintel/rsj thats the issue
there still has to be a fire barrier between the 2 properties
so they cant just have an open-plan kitchen/diner, as there wouldnt be any barrier



hole/gate in fence isnt skirting around the debate:
the OP wants some form of easier movement between 2 adjacent properties.
they only want it for a short period of time (5 years)
they only want 1 access point, & still want to keep it as 2 seperate properties

removing a fence panel or fitting a gate meets their requirements


lets pluck some figures out of the air
say that all the works would cost £5000
then its all got to be reinstated (just bricking up the doorway might not be enough) so another £1000
=£6000 / 5 years
£1200 a year just for some easier access?
its up to the OP to work out if that is really worth it or not