Bathroom extractor / loft

SlowLoris_3

Hello,
We are first time buyers and are currently looking at a property which we really like however we have one concern and I was wondering if anyone can help provide some infor /advice for us.

The property currently has an extractor fan in the bathroon which does not lead directly outside but instead into the loft (by way of a funnel out in to the loft space) to disperse the steam. Is such a device safe for both the structure of the room and beams and also for any goods stored up there or will they be prone to excessive condensation or other potentially damaging results?

Secondly we would likely want to have the loft boarded / a ladder put in, how much trouble and expense would there be to remove the extractor entirely to facilitate this? I appreciate that this will probably depend on the specific type of extractor but any indication would be appreciated.

Finally, if we did carry out boarding the loft we would likely manage fine without an extractor and just open the window after using the bathroom but should we wish to fit one into the external wall does anyone have any indication what the cost of this could be?

Hope all that makes sense.
Thank you

P.S. apologies if this is in the wrong area of the forum

Haggis_n_Neeps

The vent fan should be ducted to the external air. Assuming that the roof insulation is at ceiling level, then you are correct regarding condensation. The risk of this happening is much higher in cold roof spaces. I have seen cases leading to deterioration & rotting of the roof rafters, condensation dripping onto the insulation quilt and making it less effective at insulating. Its not your problems just now - make sure it doesn't become yours and ask the sellers to get the problem rectified and vented to outside air before buying the property.

Sorry I dont know about costs etc for fitting a fan through the wall, but I would recommend whatever option you choose that you keep a mechinical vent fan of some kind as in winter you may find that when having a shower/bath you are inclined to keep the window closed. This is when the fan can be used to help remove the steam build up from the room.

Alan_M_2

It was quite normal to install fans like this venting into the loft space before all the insulation regulations came into effect.

Nealry all loft spaces used to be relatively open at the eve's which gave a constant flow of air through the loft space, generally more than enough to disperse any condensated air you were extracting into it.

With the advent of the energy saving regulations most loft spaces became sealed spaces, so no longer viable propositions to vent into.

So you either extract via ducting into the sofit board, through a venting roof tile or core a hole directly through the external wall and fit a wall mounted unit.

It's now a building regulation that extraction must be fitted to any new bathroom if work is undertaken, but building regulations do not apply retrospectively.

So techincally if it were instaled as you descirbe now it would not comply and would need to be rectified, however if it's an existing installation it can be left alone until any work is proposed, at which point it is required to be brought in line with currecnt regulations.

It's not the current homeowners responsibility to correct it, but when you make your offer, just take into account any work that will be required.

As for cost, coring a hole through an external wall and running the electrics to it, along with supplying and fitting a fan, your probably looking at £300-£400 depending on external access, which is exactly why most of them are fitted through the ceiling, it's more effeicent and cheaper to install.

SlowLoris_3

Alan_M wrote:

So you either extract via ducting into the sofit board, through a venting roof tile

thanks for the information.
How much hassle / cost would be involved with the sofit board method? Should it be possible to adjust the existing system to do this easier than fitting a whole new extractor?

Alan_M_2

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Ventilation_Index/4_Inch_Fans_Duct/index.html

Click on that, diagrams say more than words.

Mikeyorks

SlowLoris wrote:

thanks for the information.
How much hassle / cost would be involved with the sofit board method? Should it be possible to adjust the existing system to do this easier than fitting a whole new extractor?

It really depends how good the existing extractor is. You should be looking to change the air in the bathroom 9/10 times per hour when the extractor is on (work out the cubic metres - multiply by 10 - and that's the extractor capacity you need).

IMHO it's worth investing in a powerful timed in-line extractor (linked to the light switch) - to get rid of steam and inhibit any mould problems. I recently fitted one of the Manrose ones from the TLC site (previous post) - and it's excellent. Virtually sucks the suds off you under the shower and you can see the jet of steam from the outside (fascia) vent. Would hate to think all that steam was going either into the loft - or staying in the bathroom!

I fitted one at the last house and had to chisel through a 2 foot solid rubble filled wall to vent it. But that was slightly easier than the current place where it vents through the fascia (the soffit was just too narrow for a 4 in vent). The timbers in the loft come down too low - so I had to work from the outside to cut the hole - and push the flexible pipe through.

But it's messy rather than difficult, and nothing a competent DIYer can't cope with. You may need a fraction of help with the electrics - as the timed model needs both a switched live and a permanent live - to allow the extractor to run on for 10 / 15 mins after the light is switched off. But its worth it to get rid of all that moisture. And the fan is mounted in the middle of the loft - so you lose virtually all the noise. Total cost if you do it - around £100
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SLTDK250T.html for the extractor and vent kit. A fraction more if you use the internal vent with the halogen light in it (ideal over a shower cubicle) Or £15 if you simply run a flexible pipe from the existing extractor? http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MRLAD4.html

As regards boarding the loft. If its only for storage - you only need to board, say, the central area and well insulate the rest? The extractor / pipe should be able to cohabit amicably at the side of that (and above the insulation - but use the flexible aluminised pipe as it's less prone to condensation in the winter if above the insulation blanket)? Personally - I would never put an extractor in the wall / window. They're ugly, noisy and generally underpowered.

Alan_M_2

I second that, I used to fit the S&P units as a matter of course (I found the 160's plenty for even a reasonably large room), although I went out my way to fit the fan unit itself on a soild wall and not on the loft floor or joists of the ceiling, it would often give a low resonance when running, if attached to a wall it's virtually silent.

Always wire it into the light switch and fit a unit with an adjustable timer overrun, that way you never forget to tunr it on or get in the habit of not using it.

SlowLoris_3

thank you very much for your help so far. You've helped ease my initial fears that rectifying the current extractor would be a hefty task.

If the situation because an actuality we will look to replace the current extractor in the ceiling with a new fan on a timer and duct it out from it's current position through the loft space to outside.

My thirdly and probably most obvious question to answer is, as neither of us would consider ourselves competant DIY-ers (yet) and wouldn't want to mess up straight away who would be the best person to get in to carry out the job? would a general 'handy-man' type person most likely be capable or should we look in a more qualified direction to be assured?

Mikeyorks

Wish you hadn't asked that ... as I'm not really sure!

It's a bit of a 'no man's land' job? My plumber would have done mine, but he's electrically useless (his admission). My electrician .... is simply useless (my admission - the new central heating timer still only tells the time .. the central heating just ignores it). Bathroom or kitchen (they're not much different from a kitchen extractor - bar the electrics) fitter ... are options - but they tend to do 'whole' jobs not an odd bit such as this.

So - will trust that 'Alan M' returns and gives you a definitive answer - as he's obviously done a few? But I would hazard that a general handy man - out of your local paper - should be capable. But do check he's done a few (and ask for a reference job) - before setting him on.

And - would suggest if you get that far - buy the extractor yourself from somewhere like TLC. The ones from B&Q / Focus / Screwfix etc are not usually of the right quality / power

Alan_M_2

This a grey area now, any work undertaken in the bathroom is now covered by Part P, however, if it's fitted in the loft then technically it's not in the bathroom.

They are very straightforward to wire up, but daunting if you've never done it before.

I'd suggest that this installation would fall to an electrician, but you might have to cut the hole in the eves/sofit board yourself.

I used to install these units as part of the full bathroom installtion, be we stopped that part of the business when all the regulations regarding electrcis were introduced, it was the straw that broke the camels back with regards to the profitablity of full bathroom installations.

sneekymum

My miserable but correct answer to the loft boarding question (pasted from another thread) -

Ceiling joists are designed to carry the weight of the plasterboard - in many cases the insulation is an additional weight already. Lofts are not designed for storage - there is no proper way to lay loft boarding as loft boarding is an inherently bad idea. It disguises the fact that there is no supporting structure below, it encourages storage, it squashes insulation and produces a cold area. A properly insulated loft is not a good place to store things anyway.