Is this legal?

confused76

i hope you get this sorted out...i understand you are probably very worried for your daughter. all the best

pendulum

The shop is the innocent party in all this, they were the victims of a theft here, they then had their security guards retrieve the product outside of the premises and are now sending the thief the bill for the recovery.

Shops need expensive CCTV, security guards and security devices, and when a thief is caught red handed like your daughter was, they are going to try and recover some of these costs from her... rightly so.

Playing the mental health card is disgraceful in my opinion, it's not excuse for shoplifting, whatever next... if it was my daughter I would make her pay to teach her a lesson and be thankful they didn't call the police.

To be honest, IF someone has shoplifted because of their mental health issues, then far from that being an excuse to be let off, it should be taken more seriously, they should be locked up and treated before they're even allowed to share the streets with the ordinary public again, because it's not right that a mental person who doesn't know what they are doing can run free without respecting the laws and cause harm to innocent third parties (like shop owners and other members of the public). They are obviously a danger.

MORPH3US

Run for the hills pendulum, run for the hills :eek:

adouglasmhor

pendulum wrote: »

The shop is the innocent party in all this, they were the victims of a theft here, they then had their security guards retrieve the product outside of the premises and are now sending the thief the bill for the recovery.

Shops need expensive CCTV, security guards and security devices, and when a thief is caught red handed like your daughter was, they are going to try and recover some of these costs from her... rightly so.

Playing the mental health card is disgraceful in my opinion, it's not excuse for shoplifting, whatever next... if it was my daughter I would make her pay to teach her a lesson and be thankful they didn't call the police.

To be honest, IF someone has shoplifted because of their mental health issues, then far from that being an excuse to be let off, it should be taken more seriously, they should be locked up and treated before they're even allowed to share the streets with the ordinary public again, because it's not right that a mental person who doesn't know what they are doing can run free without respecting the laws and cause harm to innocent third parties (like shop owners and other members of the public). They are obviously a danger.

The 1950s are on the phone, they are wondering where you have been.

Esqui

I don't think the OP at any point has said what sort of mental health problems her daughter has. The way people are going on here, you'd have thought the kid was schizophrenic or liable to knife people for no reason.

It could be something like autism, or what most people would call 'learning difficulties'. It could even be a mild form of depression. Sometimes people without mental health issues forget to put things back, that's just being forgetful - I wouldn't lock them up for it.

Mark_Hewitt

Doesn't a sucessful prosecution for theft have to prove intent? i.e. IIRC "Intent to permanently deprive". Forgetting that you have some shampoo in your hand and having the intention to return it when you discovered the mistake is not theft.

Crazy_Jamie

pendulum wrote:

Playing the mental health card is disgraceful in my opinion, it's not excuse for shoplifting, whatever next... if it was my daughter I would make her pay to teach her a lesson and be thankful they didn't call the police.

On the contrary, it could potentially be a roundabout defence. There is a mens rea element to theft; to dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another with intent to permanently deprive. We don't know what mental health issues the OP's daughter had, but if hypothetically she didn't realise she was carrying the shampoo, or honestly believed that she had already paid for it or didn't have to pay for it, then she is not actually guilty of theft.

Of course if her issues did not impact on her state of mind sufficiently to affect the mens rea for the offence (i.e. if she was suffering from depression or similar), then there is a debate to be had about the extent of which such a condition can be a mitigating factor. But concluding that her condition could only be used as an excuse is premature; it could actually be a viable defence to a theft charge in its entirety.

pendulum

Even if there is not enough proof to convict for theft, it doesn't mean the shop aren't entitled to recover their costs. In this case the woman walked out of the shop without paying for an item and this negligent act by her necessitated the response of security guards and a great deal of time by the manager. Time is money and if they are trying to invoice her for that then good luck to them.

It's the same as if I walked out of a shop and broke something by mistake, I might not be guilty of an offence but I still have to pay damages.

One thing all decent people should be able to agree on is that this girl shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets if her mental health issues are causing her to steal. Its not fair on shop owners and anyone else who may become her victim.

And for all you know the CCTV may show her hiding the item before walking out which would be a pretty good indicator that there was dishonest intent.

pendulum

Esqui wrote: »

It could be something like autism, or what most people would call 'learning difficulties'. It could even be a mild form of depression...

Autism... learning difficulties... depression... all excuses to shoplift? That seems to be what you're saying.

Of course, none of those issues above should be used to excuse shoplifting. Pretty much every kid has either autism or learning difficulties these days :rolleyes: and most don't nick.

The problem is when some little !!!!!! goes on the nick, gets found out, and then uses his "autism" as an excuse... its easy to hide behind a "condition" to excuse your bad or criminal behaviour...

adouglasmhor

pendulum wrote: »

Autism... learning difficulties... depression... all excuses to shoplift? That seems to be what you're saying.

Of course, none of those issues above should be used to excuse shoplifting. Pretty much every kid has either autism or learning difficulties these days :rolleyes: and most don't nick.

The problem is when some little !!!!!! goes on the nick, gets found out, and then uses his "autism" as an excuse... its easy to hide behind a "condition" to excuse your bad or criminal behaviour...

The problem is when someone with a genuine condition meets an uneducated specimen like you. Who bays for vengeance (it’s certainly not justice) as soon as things don't go her way. Even if the shampoo had not been recovered do you think it took more than an hour for the security guard and manager to deal with it?

£130 for an hour of a security guard and a shopkeeper’s time, I must be in the wrong job.


And you may have missed it while you were foaming at the mouth but it's an ADULT with a mental health issue in this story not a child.