Will Gordon Brown send UK economy over the edge?

robin_banks

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Tony Blair's career certainly didn't end in failiure!

I don't think he's quite finished though

Rochdale_Pioneers

Generali wrote: »

That's disingenuous at best or a lie at worst. At the end of the last full financial year, 2008-9, the UK ran a debt of £101,300,000,000 or 7.1% of GDP which took it's total borrowings to over 55% of GDP. That is according to the UK Government's own figures of course (link). At the end of September 2009, it was 59% of GDP - a deterioration of nearly a full %age point of GDP per month!

I was not referring to the last few months of 2008 post crash - we had to borrow money to rescue Northern Rock. Where was debt in the middle of the year? Or at the end of 2007 if you prefer?

Generali wrote: »

Who cares what France or Italy's debt positions are? If they're running the same course as the UK they'll end up in the same position. Unless it'll make you feel better that despite the UK being bankrupted by her liabilities (and let us not forget that National Debt is just the start of that), at least the French are even more bankrupt.

Its relevant because the shrill hysterical cries of "we're bankrupt" are demolished when you look at other countries of similar size to ourselves running much higher debts over long periods who have somehow managed to not go bust. Unless the UK uniquely about to collapse under much less debt than the others can manage then the argument is rampant cobblers.

We are not going bust we will not go bust we cannot - as a nation who prints the currency the debts are in - physically go bust. The argument is made that we need to reign in spending - which in the context of doing so once we're out of recession I agree with. Not everyone agrees - the French with just as much % debt and a near-identical sized economy as the UK plan on borrowing oceans more cash to throw at infrastructure projects. They won't go bust either.

Graham_Devon

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

Its relevant because the shrill hysterical cries of "we're bankrupt" are demolished when you look at other countries of similar size to ourselves running much higher debts over long periods who have somehow managed to not go bust. Unless the UK uniquely about to collapse under much less debt than the others can manage then the argument is rampant cobblers.

This only looks at the size of the debt though. It doesn't look at anything else. Such as our liabilities.

We are not going bust we will not go bust we cannot - as a nation who prints the currency the debts are in - physically go bust.

So what happened in 1976?

I know you have changed the terminology somewhat here.

The_White_Horse

CLAPTON wrote: »

In terms of most peoples everyday living the last 12 years were pretty good.
Undoubted improvements in general living standard, improved health service, more money in education etc.

do you regret e.g. the reduced waiting times for cancer treatment and do

you think that a conservative government would have done the same

also of course lots of things I don't like, lots of wastful spending, mindless changes, general iiliberal policies etc etc

The financial meltdown happened on his watch.. he helped contribute to it but then so did previous governements and frankly the broad sweep of general financial opinion.

Long after Brown is forgotten, Thatcher will wrongly or rightly will be both the most hated and possibily most admired PM

Yes, but it was all built on lies and borrowing. If we put it in a personal context, all they have done is gotten a credit card with a high limit and lived the high life for a year or so. Going for nice meals, long holidays, buying cars.

But none of it was built on real wealth. it was just a show. a mockery. lies.

Now the credit card is maxed out, and no more credit can be obtained. But rather than cutting back and paying the card back, this lot have found some dodgy loan shark to lend them even more so they can keep the lavish lifestyle. they have even resorted to printing money in their garage to keep the lavish lifestyle going. now isn't the time to stop the idiotic spending, its time to continue.

When the tories get in, they will start having to clean up the mess. Yes, of course they will be unpopular. Why wouldn't they be - who prefers a stingy person to a generous maniac with a big credit limit????

we just have to hope the middle class majority accept the pain as they should because deep down, they know it has to happen, they know the credit cards have to be paid back.

Cleaver

Graham_Devon wrote: »

So what happened in 1976?

According to Wikipedia, UK and Iceland ended the cod war, concorde made her first commercial flight, the British pound fell below $2 for the first time ever and Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody' reached number one in the charts.

The_White_Horse

oh, and I for one would not mind higher taxes provided they were not wasted on scumbags.

Rochdale_Pioneers

Graham_Devon wrote: »

So what happened in 1976?

We didn't go bust! We had to borrow money from the IMF because our outgoings were higher than our income and we couldn't find suitable capital to borrow to cover the gap.

The accusation now is that Britain will go bust. Camerosborne have said repeatedly that they have concerns about the UK defaulting - not paying - its debt. THAT is going bust. Not being able to borrow what you like and having to cut further spending is NOT going bust. The IMF agreed to lend money if we reduced public spending - exactly the same requirement now being made of the UK by the international money markets. Wholly different to the apocalypse being suggested by Camerosborne and various frothers on here.

Graham_Devon

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

We didn't go bust! We had to borrow money from the IMF because our outgoings were higher than our income and we couldn't find suitable capital to borrow to cover the gap.

As good as bust in my book.

Just terminlogy being used here to make a point.

Generali

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

I was not referring to the last few months of 2008 post crash - we had to borrow money to rescue Northern Rock. Where was debt in the middle of the year? Or at the end of 2007 if you prefer?

I preferred and continue to prefer the most up to date statistic, using the most relevent choice of those available.

If you want to pick out a level of Public Debt for a particular date then I suggest you use the UK National Statistics Hub as a starting point (link).

From there you could use the Open University or similar so you could gain a grounding in mathematics or statistics (link) so you could understand what you post rather than just firing around a bunch of random numbers.

Rochdale_Pioneers wrote: »

Its relevant because the shrill hysterical cries of "we're bankrupt" are demolished when you look at other countries of similar size to ourselves running much higher debts over long periods who have somehow managed to not go bust. Unless the UK uniquely about to collapse under much less debt than the others can manage then the argument is rampant cobblers.

We are not going bust we will not go bust we cannot - as a nation who prints the currency the debts are in - physically go bust. The argument is made that we need to reign in spending - which in the context of doing so once we're out of recession I agree with. Not everyone agrees - the French with just as much % debt and a near-identical sized economy as the UK plan on borrowing oceans more cash to throw at infrastructure projects. They won't go bust either.

Do you believe there's a finite limit to sovereign debt or do you think debt can continue to be serviced to an unlimited level by the UK Government?

I think you understand the question and so can't answer.

Rochdale_Pioneers

Graham_Devon wrote: »

As good as bust in my book.

Just terminlogy being used here to make a point.

Now you really are talking rubbish. You are either bankrupt - defaulting on your existing debt - or you're not. Stop trying to find wriggle room on a definition that is pretty simple - have you got a dictionary?