Credit Card Co. sent me an illegible application form (CCA)

JLHE

I CCAd the Credit Card Co. and they didn't get back within the 12+2 days, so I sent them a letter saying the account was in dispute. A few days after, they sent me a letter saying this -

"We are obliged to provide a 'true' copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information relating to the account, namely the state of the account, amount currently due, with amounts and due dates of future payments that still require to be made. In terms of CCA copy document regulations, the 'true' copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement wa made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.

I have enclosed the s78 (1) information".

I haven't got a scanner, otherwise I'd scan it for you, but they enclosed -

a) A very illegible form. Is is less than half an A4 in size and all the print is tiny and blurred. I can make out "COMBINED CARD ACCOUNT - STUDENT APPLICATION" at the top. Thereafter, I can barely make out "choices of card account"; my name and address; DOB; Bank Account Number and Sort Code; Bank Address; University Address and Course Attended etc. I can just about make out a figure that represented my overdraft figure. My signature is at the end. I cannot see anything that refers to my Credit Card - its limit or repayments. Even if they were there, I wouldn't be able to read them,; but I'm pretty certain they are not present.

(b) on 2 seperate (bad) photocopies there are "terms and conditions of this offer"; "Combined Card Account"; "important credit information"; "Your Rights"; "Credit Card - Conditions of Use". It's all very general and isn't specific to my account, since there's a box explaining many different cards from MasterCard to Visa Gold and their interest rates and "Sample Credit Limits". Still no Credit Limit or signature.

(b) 2 pages -
(i) a generic "Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974".
This could have been made up yesterday. It seems to have all the info - "Card Issuer"; "Financial Information" - "How and when interest charges are calculated" and "interest rates" etc. However, it does not have my name on it; my credit limit or my signature. These are on the other page -
(ii) It's got my current address (which is different to the original when I first signed for the card) with my card number and Credit Limit etc.

I'm just wondering what I should say in my next letter and hit them with next.
Any help would be greatly appeciated!

Many thanks,
JL

never-in-doubt

Hiya

They have issued a CCA that is ilegible? If so; send the letter from here: Unenforceability & Template Letters

You need to send the query CCA letter....

Account in Dispute - Section 10 Notice

Dear Sirs,

Account No:

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account. On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.
(date = 12+2 days after you sent the CCA request - delete this text)

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

Furthermore;

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 (+2) days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation. This limit has expired

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested, any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 30 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 30 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* You may not pass the account to a third party.
* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 30 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and look forward to hearing from you in writing within 30 days.

Yours faithfully




Sign digitally

JLHE

Thanks Neverindoubt - your help is greatly appreciated here, by everyone I'm sure! I had already sent them the above letter - dispute/section 10, due to them not having replied within 12+2 days.

Here is the letter (N.I.D. - yours of which I have tweaked to suit my case!) that I intend on sending to them next. I would just like any opinion on how I should change and/or add anything.

Two questions -

a) Am I hitting the right points regarding their sending me an illegible application form and the "current terms and conditions" on a seperate page?

b) should I be requesting the true copy by SAR?

Here it is -

Dear Sir/Madam,

Account Number:

Re: Your reply to my request under section 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

On XXXXXXXX, I wrote to XXXXXX requesting a ‘true copy’ of the credit agreement relating to the above account and received a response dated xxxxxx on xxxxxxxx 2009.

Unfortunately, the documents XXXXXX supplied do not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974; therefore XXXXXX remain in default whilst the account is in dispute.

The documents I received appear to be an illegible photocopy of my ‘Combined Card Account – Student Application’ and a separate ‘copy of the current terms and agreement’. The prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974, are not at all visible and therefore the documents provided do not constitute a ‘true copy’.

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are and I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required.

May I remind you that since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states:

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

In addition, should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines. I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection, which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections; and regarding what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states;

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm that I am liable to XXXXXX for this alleged debt; if you cannot do so, I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will have no other option than to report XXXXXX to the Office of Fair Trading.

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days.

Yours faithfully,

never-in-doubt

JLHE wrote: »

Thanks Neverindoubt - your help is greatly appreciated here, by everyone I'm sure! I had already sent them the above letter - dispute/section 10, due to them not having replied within 12+2 days.

Here is the letter (N.I.D. - yours of which I have tweaked to suit my case!) that I intend on sending to them next. I would just like any opinion on how I should change and/or add anything.

Two questions -

a) Am I hitting the right points regarding their sending me an illegible application form and the "current terms and conditions" on a seperate page?

b) should I be requesting the true copy by SAR?

Nice letter - way to go! That's fine and yes, you're hitting the nail directly on the head

You can request a SAR but this will just breach DPA if they do not send a copy and provide it at a later date, say you issue CPR31.16 so it can be done but a waste of a tenner if you ask me!....

JLHE

....that gives me the reassurance and confidence I need! I definitely owe you a few beers, my friend! :beer:

I was also wondering, if you could clarify about the SAR? Sorry, I didn't quite get it!

never-in-doubt

JLHE wrote: »

....that gives me the reassurance and confidence I need! I definitely owe you a few beers, my friend! :beer:

I was also wondering, if you could clarify about the SAR? Sorry, I didn't quite get it!

The SAR is a data protection provision, i.e. under section 7(1) of the DPA so it doesn't cross-link with the CCA1974. Therefore, if you SAR them and they do not send a copy of the credit agreement within the SAR but later, say at court, provide it - you can then seek damages as they would have breached the SAR by omiting it. Follow me? lol

SAR template is here - #6

Being honest, send the above letter again and then if they do not respond then consider sending in a SAR to the OC and the DCA as a separate issues - don't confuse it as being part of the CCA Request, it is simply another way to get 'everything' they hold about you.

Make sense now

JLHE

Yup, makes sense now!
Meanwhile, I'll just wait and see what happens with this letter.

Just a thought - has anyone else here received an illegible application form? If so, what happened next?

never-in-doubt

JLHE wrote: »

Just a thought - has anyone else here received an illegible application form? If so, what happened next?

Yep - loads! You write in telling them (as you're doing), they deny it, you argue, they argue back, they then realise they cannot win and the debt would become unenforceable in line with CCA1974 guidance!

Thats the only way it can happen - they have to prove to you that the paperwork is in order or you make it unenforceable in line with s.127.

JLHE

But another thing!

I sent them a letter on 20th of Oct. saying Account in Dispute - Section 10 Notice because they hadn't replied within 12+2 days, but I don't think it got there - I can't track it via Royal Mail website, for some reason. Meanwhile though, they've sent me these illegible documents.

Should I resend or enclose the other letter again? Or does this one suffice, seeing as they've now complied (to some degree!)?

Thanks,
L

never-in-doubt

JLHE wrote: »

But another thing!

I sent them a letter on 20th of Oct. saying Account in Dispute - Section 10 Notice because they hadn't replied within 12+2 days, but I don't think it got there - I can't track it via Royal Mail website, for some reason. Meanwhile though, they've sent me these illegible documents.

Should I resend or enclose the other letter again? Or does this one suffice, seeing as they've now complied (to some degree!)?

Thanks,
L

You'd send the same letter, they still haven't complied, thus you're seeking s.10 (cease & desist) and disputing the debt until such time they can prove it. Its up to you if you re-send, maybe postal strikes have something to do with the delay...?

JLHE

How about this for a revised version?.........

Have I got it right about them having to reply within 30 days about the section 10 notice and 14 regarding sending a legible copy?

Dear Sir/Madam,

Account Number: XXXXXXXXXX


ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE – SECTION 10 NOTICE

Re: Your reply to my request under section 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974
On xxxxxx, I wrote to xxxxxx requesting a ‘true copy’ of the credit agreement relating to the above account and received a response dated xxxxxxx, on xxxxxxxx

Unfortunately, the documents supplied by xxxxxxxx do not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974; therefore ,xxxxxx remain in default whilst the account is in dispute.

The documents I received appear to be an illegible photocopy of my ‘Combined Card Account – Student Application’ and a separate ‘copy of the current terms and agreement’. The prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974, are not at all visible and therefore the documents provided do not constitute a ‘true copy’.

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are and I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required.

May I remind you that since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms, it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states:

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

In addition, should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines. I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance, which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections; and regarding what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states:

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:
h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

You should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a legible ‘true copy’ of the requested credit agreement, containing the required prescribed terms is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies:

• xxxxxx may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to xxxxxx.
• xxxxxx may not add further interest or charges to the account.
• xxxxxx may not pass the account to a third party.
• xxxxxx may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
• xxxxxx may not issue a default notice related to the account.

Please note that due to this account being in dispute, you must also consider this letter to be a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 30 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 30 days, I expect that you agree to remove all such data.

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm that I am liable to xxxxxxx for this alleged debt; if you cannot do so, I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will have no other option than to report xxxxxx to the Office of Fair Trading.

I respectfully request a written response to this letter with in 14 days.

Yours faithfully,