How does Howden's Kitchen quote compare?

TigerTanaka

jillytb wrote: »

They are doing the, we cannot deal with you as my contract is with my trader thing everytime i reveal something else - thanks you MSV, it will all come out in the wash I am sure in the end, they have now found one of the two invoices I have, the second they now say is a duplicate that CREATES a new invoice number, by definition I believe that is a new invoice, also there is a difference of £547.90 between two invoices for the same items, most irregular but now they are saying "cannot help you, data protection" etc, they have already broken it and I have to say there is something very odd going on!
Also their customer services people and the people at the depot have been extremely rude to me, I wouldnt recommend them from this point of view either.
Still there is so much competition out there but the this business is a minefield and open to so much abuse!

What happens is this.

• Builder buys kitchen for say £1500 to resell onto his customer
• He tells the customer that he has paid £2,200 for the kitchen then charges £1,000 for the installation.
• Customer does research on the Howdens process, realises that they may be being ripped off and demands to see copies of invoices
• Builder goes back to his local Howdens depot and gets the salesperson to re-invoice a new kitchen (exactly the same one) at £2,200, creating a peice of paper for the builder to show his customer
• Salesman then immediately credits the invoice (as if the customer has returned the goods)
• Piece of paper created showing an invoice for £2,200 but only £1,500 has been spent

Same process goes for quotations (they will give the builder 2 with different discounts on, a real one and one to show the end customer). Reporting this to trading standards will make the local manager panic (although they are probably doing noting illegal, just immoral).

Howdens is no more a Trade only company than Jewsons these days. They are probably breaking the terms of their planning consents by selling to the general public.

PM me if you want more info on Howdens

leveller2911

TigerTanaka wrote: »

What happens is this.

• Builder buys kitchen for say £1500 to resell onto his customer
• He tells the customer that he has paid £2,200 for the kitchen then charges £1,000 for the installation.
• Customer does research on the Howdens process, realises that they may be being ripped off and demands to see copies of invoices
• Builder goes back to his local Howdens depot and gets the salesperson to re-invoice a new kitchen (exactly the same one) at £2,200, creating a peice of paper for the builder to show his customer
• Salesman then immediately credits the invoice (as if the customer has returned the goods)
• Piece of paper created showing an invoice for £2,200 but only £1,500 has been spent

Same process goes for quotations (they will give the builder 2 with different discounts on, a real one and one to show the end customer). Reporting this to trading standards will make the local manager panic (although they are probably doing noting illegal, just immoral).

Howdens is no more a Trade only company than Jewsons these days. They are probably breaking the terms of their planning consents by selling to the general public.

PM me if you want more info on Howdens

Ive had an account with Howdens for 11 yrs and Ive NEVER once encountered what you are saying.


FACTS ARE AS FOLLOWS: Howdens sell kitchens to the account holder, he/she then sells on that kitchen as a supply only or supply and fit.In doing so he "adds-on" his margin (putting aside dodgy builders,developers or fitters) . The "contract" is between Howdens and the account holder.

If what you say is true, the moment that "local howdens depot gets the salesperson to raise another invoice" they are comitting an illegal act and I dont believe a word you are saying.For one thing its VAT fraud and they just aren't gonna do that im afraid.

The builder,fitter,developer has NO obligation to show any invoice to the customer at all, to be honest its not their business.The contract of work is between Howdens and the fitter,builder, in the same way that if something is faulty with the kitchen the customers 1st stop is the fitter,builder or developer and not Howdens...If the kitchen is paid for by the builder then the contract is with him/her......

Please explain how they may be "breaking their planning consent by selling to the general public??????????????

I fit their kitchens, never make money on supplying the Kitchens , just charge labour and I,m always happy for Howdens to send the quotes direct to the client.Howdens are not perfect with their discount system but they are not crooks.

I went to look at a kitchen last night. The customer went to B&Q and got a quote for a kitchen.The supply only price fo the units and a 5 burner gas hob was £3.5k and to fit the kitchen they wanted £6.5k making it a £10k kitchen Now that is a rip-off.......I worked out theres 7 days work for 1 man............

The main thing Howdens need to do is decide whether to be "trade only" or "full market" and stick to it. The confusion comes from when they act as both but say they are just trade........There are far too many branches now to be trade only........

When alls said and done the customer after a few years of living with a kitchen will decide on whether it was value for money. I make bespoke kitchens that are far better quality than Howdens and all the other standard kitchen suppliers but I could not compete on price so you pays your money you takes your choice........

TigerTanaka

leveller2911 wrote: »

Ive had an account with Howdens for 11 yrs and Ive NEVER once encountered what you are saying.


FACTS ARE AS FOLLOWS: Howdens sell kitchens to the account holder, he/she then sells on that kitchen as a supply only or supply and fit.In doing so he "adds-on" his margin (putting aside dodgy builders,developers or fitters) . The "contract" is between Howdens and the account holder.

If what you say is true, the moment that "local howdens depot gets the salesperson to raise another invoice" they are comitting an illegal act and I dont believe a word you are saying.For one thing its VAT fraud and they just aren't gonna do that im afraid.

The builder,fitter,developer has NO obligation to show any invoice to the customer at all, to be honest its not their business.The contract of work is between Howdens and the fitter,builder, in the same way that if something is faulty with the kitchen the customers 1st stop is the fitter,builder or developer and not Howdens...If the kitchen is paid for by the builder then the contract is with him/her......

Please explain how they may be "breaking their planning consent by selling to the general public??????????????

I fit their kitchens, never make money on supplying the Kitchens , just charge labour and I,m always happy for Howdens to send the quotes direct to the client.Howdens are not perfect with their discount system but they are not crooks.

I went to look at a kitchen last night. The customer went to B&Q and got a quote for a kitchen.The supply only price fo the units and a 5 burner gas hob was £3.5k and to fit the kitchen they wanted £6.5k making it a £10k kitchen Now that is a rip-off.......I worked out theres 7 days work for 1 man............

The main thing Howdens need to do is decide whether to be "trade only" or "full market" and stick to it. The confusion comes from when they act as both but say they are just trade........There are far too many branches now to be trade only........

When alls said and done the customer after a few years of living with a kitchen will decide on whether it was value for money. I make bespoke kitchens that are far better quality than Howdens and all the other standard kitchen suppliers but I could not compete on price so you pays your money you takes your choice........

Do you think that the Howdens counter staff even think/care that it is VAT fraud? Anyway I dont think it is VAT fraud as the "new" invoice is only used to "prove" the price to the customer. The builder will provide a proper VAT receipt to his customer (for the supply of the goods and the labour) and the original invoice will be used to reclaim the VAT from the taxman. How else do you explain this mysterious duplicate invoice that is £547.90 more than the original? Dont blame Howdens systems, they were replaced only last year and copy invoices have the original invoice number on them. A copy of the account holder's statement would show everything.

Agree that the contract is between Howdens and their customer and Howdens are under no obligation to show prices paid to the builders customer. Howdens job is to make money for their customers (the one that buys a few kitchens a year, not the one who buys one every 7 years) and they provide the service and materials to do so. The depot is simply lying if they say they cant get at the customers transaction details (just that they dont want to).

In the UK, the building trade expects deep discounts and if anyone has paid the brochure price (or anything close) for a kitchen from their builder would feel done. Then again maybe they should have done some shopping around first and got a few quotes in for the job. If the builder does put a small mark up on the units it is fine by me as they typically quote far less for the fit than you would pay at Homebase, B&Q or Magnet. The builder has to make some money and people will often baulk at paying £1500 to someone to fit the kitchen. That B&Q quote does sound horrific though.

Agree that Howdens Trade only policy has collapsed as more depots have opened. They start to take business off each other while the sales targets get ever higher. The temptation to serve the retail customer has been too much to resist for Howdens depots.

Planning consent: Howdens depots will have B8 (Trade counter/warehouse) consents which basically means that they are supplying to the trade. Without planning consents there would be nothing to stop retail companies taking over trade parks/industrial estates any paying much cheaper rent. However, in reality, they are not that strictly enforced unless a firm does something outrageous.

leveller2911

TigerTanaka wrote: »

Do you think that the Howdens counter staff even think/care that it is VAT fraud? Anyway I dont think it is VAT fraud as the "new" invoice is only used to "prove" the price to the customer. The builder will provide a proper VAT receipt to his customer (for the supply of the goods and the labour) and the original invoice will be used to reclaim the VAT from the taxman. How else do you explain this mysterious duplicate invoice that is £547.90 more than the original? Dont blame Howdens systems, they were replaced only last year and copy invoices have the original invoice number on them. A copy of the account holder's statement would show everything.

Agree that the contract is between Howdens and their customer and Howdens are under no obligation to show prices paid to the builders customer. Howdens job is to make money for their customers (the one that buys a few kitchens a year, not the one who buys one every 7 years) and they provide the service and materials to do so. The depot is simply lying if they say they cant get at the customers transaction details (just that they dont want to).

In the UK, the building trade expects deep discounts and if anyone has paid the brochure price (or anything close) for a kitchen from their builder would feel done. Then again maybe they should have done some shopping around first and got a few quotes in for the job. If the builder does put a small mark up on the units it is fine by me as they typically quote far less for the fit than you would pay at Homebase, B&Q or Magnet. The builder has to make some money and people will often baulk at paying £1500 to someone to fit the kitchen. That B&Q quote does sound horrific though.

Agree that Howdens Trade only policy has collapsed as more depots have opened. They start to take business off each other while the sales targets get ever higher. The temptation to serve the retail customer has been too much to resist for Howdens depots.

Planning consent: Howdens depots will have B8 (Trade counter/warehouse) consents which basically means that they are supplying to the trade. Without planning consents there would be nothing to stop retail companies taking over trade parks/industrial estates any paying much cheaper rent. However, in reality, they are not that strictly enforced unless a firm does something outrageous.

I am VAT registered and I can assure you it IS VAT fraud the moment an invoice is "raised" if it has the same invoice number as the 1st one but with a different amount and also if its raised with a different invoice number.Its Fraud FACT........"The new invoice is only to prove the price to the customer" the contractor who buys the kitchen has NO,ZERO,ZILCH obligation to "prove" and price for a kitchen.He or she supplies/supply and fit a kitchen for a price he/she agrees with the customer.Howdens job is Not to "make money for their customer" its to make money for Howdens as a company and its owners/shareholders.

If you buy a new car from a dealer it has little or nothing to do with the manufacturer how much "profit" the dealer makes on a car,that also goes for the discount they may offer.Its down to "profit margin".

You are quite right, customers need to always get more than one quote for any type of work, we all shop around for TV,s and sofas so why not kitchens, people need to get some savvy.

TigerTanaka

leveller2911 wrote: »

I am VAT registered and I can assure you it IS VAT fraud the moment an invoice is "raised" if it has the same invoice number as the 1st one but with a different amount and also if its raised with a different invoice number.Its Fraud FACT........"

Yes but jillytb has said that the 2nd invoice was on a different invoice number. If the VAT man asks any questions both Howdens and the builder can produce a credit note to say that there was some mistake and the 2nd invoice was reversed.

leveller2911 wrote: »

The new invoice is only to prove the price to the customer" the contractor who buys the kitchen has NO,ZERO,ZILCH obligation to "prove" and price for a kitchen.He or she supplies/supply and fit a kitchen for a price he/she agrees with the customer.

Never said that the contractor was under any obligation but might have been pressured into it by his customer.

leveller2911 wrote: »

Howdens job is Not to "make money for their customer" its to make money for Howdens as a company and its owners/shareholders.

Of course their main job it is to make money for their shareholders (and to prop up the MFI lease liability and the pension deficit) and this is done by providing a service to the building trade. I was making the point that the business has been built over the years by educating builders on how much money they can make from selling on the kitchens that they fit and supplying those kitchens.

leveller2911 wrote: »

If you buy a new car from a dealer it has little or nothing to do with the manufacturer how much "profit" the dealer makes on a car,that also goes for the discount they may offer.Its down to "profit margin".

And thats why the local depot dont want to be involved. Surprised that they are not interested in supplying the extra bits though that the poster needs as in my experience even the strict trade only depots would bend the rules a bit to keep the end user happy.