Terrified by shouting, angry farmer .. what to do next?

paddy's_mum

Just to clear up a few points - the cattle that skittered off down the bank to join the rest of the herd were not chased, bothered, worried, scared, or any other word you care to use, by my dogs running near, by, at or around them. My dogs were closely at heel well before we reached them. The two or three cattle who had moved to graze away from the rest were startled by our very presence as presumably they hadn't heard us approaching - evidence of our quiet and respectful way of going on, I suppose. They would have been startled just the same had I been a person wheeling a bicycle along or somebody pushing a pram.

The countryside code and the laws which support it say dogs should be "on a lead or under close control". Their very presence near livestock is not legal justification to shoot them. Shooting dogs is only lawful if they are actually seen worrying or caught in the act of attacking. You can't shove the lad waiting at the bus stop because he is sitting on your front garden wall and might throw his coca cola bottle through your window.

The suggestion that walkers shouldn't go anywhere near cattle in the first place is not feasible given that this is a relatively narrow neck of land between two deep rivers, along which runs a centuries old public footpath several miles long. Given that the path is not just some little local cut-through but a major and nationally famous long distance footpath (the Mcmillan Way) perhaps the onus ought to be on the farmer not to have cattle roaming unrestrained on that strip of land. Defra states that good practice suggests that where cattle are on land known to be "well used by walkers" that a simple electric fence to keep cattle and people apart is a sound measure to take. It is unfortunate that the farmer should see this couple of beasts wheeling away at speed and assume that they were being chased, when in fact that was not the case at all.

However, all that is just technicalities. I've done a little bit of homework. It turns out that this man had upwards of 30 sheep harried by dogs into the river a few years ago. I entirely sympathise with both the emotional and financial loss and I can see that would make anyone less tolerant.

What I take issue with is his decision to mount the bank, physically block the footpath and put me in real fear for my safety. He could have stayed at the foot of the bank, said/shouted his piece, and left it at that. I still can't work out, if his livestock was genuinely what he was worried about, why he didn't go and check on them. It's the obvious response to the chasing you have just (you claim) seen take place!

I'm going to sleep on it and see how I feel tomorrow. I can understand and sympathise with anyone losing their temper under provocation but I'm not sure I understand why it is okay for this man to behave like a brute. Surely even an angry farmer can work out that his actions are likely to cause great distress? Thanks for all responses, whether or not I agree with the view expressed :-)

belfastgirl23

Is there an organisation responsible for maintaining the footpath (eg national trust)? If so I think I'd speak to them in the first instance. I am a little on the fence about this one, I can understand the farmer's concern but I do think that harassing walkers (particularly lone female walkers) is out of order. And there are far more constructive ways to approach this.

Churchmouse

You do not have to put your dog on a lead on public paths, as long as it is under close control. But as a general rule, keep your dog on a lead if you cannot rely on its obedience. By law, farmers are entitled to destroy a dog that injures or worries their animals.

The above is paragraph two ofthe code. I note it says "a dog that injures or worries their animals" not "if he feels like it because he is a little Hitler" or even " if he thinks a dog might injure or worry his animals" :rolleyes:
I think we must accept what the OP tells us and not wander off into the realms of "maybe this" or maybe that". If you were there and know differently, feel free to enlighten us

paddy's mum, I think the farmer was totally out of order, nothing excuses his threatening, intimidating behaviour. I would certainly be contacting the police. Hopefully a quiet word from the neighbourhood bobby will be all that is needed. If nobody reports him, he may escalate his threats into action. I'm a peace-loving person, and dislike conflict, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet for the greater good. How would you feel if someone was to suffer at his hands, when a quiet word from the police would make him think again Just my opinion, but I'm glad you weren't hurt, although obviously shaken.

my_gorgeous_ellie-belle

He was very wrong in his abusive nature, i can see why he would have been angry, and he had the right to be in my opinion but that still doesn't condone the fact that he scared the living daylights out of you.

My only thought is maybe take this and learn from it. Keep the dogs on a lead whenever you see any cattle or sheep about, then you are much less likely to have the same outcome again, be it with the same or a different farmer. If they see you have the dogs on a close lead and in control, they cannot have a go, even if their herd scarpered a bit.

If you see the farmer again, if he seems normal (by that i mean calm or approachable) i'd just appologise for having the dogs lose that time, explain that your dogs were fully in control and are farm raised anyway but none the less you will in future ALWAYS keep them on a close lead and explain that he did scare you alot though. I think you will probably find he was just terrible wound up and didn't expect to see a slender grey haired lady quietly walking her dogs and just let rip. You never know it may have been the 5th or 6th time that day he'd encountered dogs off lead...it still certainly doesn't condone his behaviour but sometimes you have to see the other point of view to understand the situation fully. Hopefully he would have had time to simmer and realise he was wrong too, that you may never know but i like to see the positive in people and believe that most people in this world are reasonable people even if they do have a crazy moment or two.

Unfortunately even if he did check on his animals straight away he probably wouldn't have found anything wrong, it is later that the miscarriages and stillbirths happen due to previous trauma. It's the hard life of a farmer i'm afraid.

By the way i don't think you intentionally did something wrong, or purposely ignoring rules so you certainly are not a bad person, you had valid reason, just unfortunately the scenario happened and it's just something to learn from and prevent happening again.

Good luck anyway. x

Churchmouse

The_Banker wrote: »

I think you should have more sense taking your dogs near cattle.;)


The cattle arent aware that your dogs are well behaved.;)


If you must walk your dogs near cattle then get them on a lead next time.


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/109293#

So are you saying that the cattle are aware dogs are on or off a lead ? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. As long as the dogs were being well behaved, (and we are told they ignore livestock) I really don't think the cattle realised whether or not they were leashed.

bestpud

ceridwen wrote: »

quite:T:T:T

So - can we pass on to discussing other matters now. Rather than asking everyone who is advocating further aggro - just why they are doing so/have they had a bad day?

End of story......conclusion....curtain drops on play....

While I agree with many of your comments on this thread, I don't think you. or anyone else, has the right to tell people when the discussion is over!

You may choose to do nothing in this situation (and I would do the same were it me) but others have a different opinion and are entitled to do so!

If you've had enough of this thread then move on, but don't dictate to others.

JCS1

paddy's_mum wrote: »

The suggestion that walkers shouldn't go anywhere near cattle in the first place is not feasible given that this is a relatively narrow neck of land between two deep rivers, along which runs a centuries old public footpath several miles long. Given that the path is not just some little local cut-through but a major and nationally famous long distance footpath (the Mcmillan Way) perhaps the onus ought to be on the farmer not to have cattle roaming unrestrained on that strip of land. Defra states that good practice suggests that where cattle are on land known to be "well used by walkers" that a simple electric fence to keep cattle and people apart is a sound measure to take. It is unfortunate that the farmer should see this couple of beasts wheeling away at speed and assume that they were being chased, when in fact that was not the case at all.

Sorry, the bit in bold is not possible. DEFRA are like many other government departments, full of technicalities and guidelines but not much use at anything practical

The_Banker_5

Churchmouse wrote: »

So are you saying that the cattle are aware dogs are on or off a lead ? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. As long as the dogs were being well behaved, (and we are told they ignore livestock) I really don't think the cattle realised whether or not they were leashed.

But if dogs are kept on their leash then there is less chance of them bothering cattle surely.

Idiophreak

paddy's_mum wrote: »

The two dogs with me today were a working bred English Springer Spaniel and a farm bred Border Collie. Both are extremely well behaved, obedient and used to passing (and ignoring!) farm livestock. A couple of my friends sometimes borrow the dogs for days out, so biddable are they.

How well behave the dogs are is mainly irrelevant, tbh - the leash is as much about perception/public confidence as much as it is about actually controlling the animal.

As a runner that's frightened of dogs, I can tell you that just having the thing on the leash puts my mind at rest, for the most part - I've lost count of the times I've been chased by "playful" dogs, tripped up by "spirited" puppies or had my path blocked by a "good boy!". I'm sure this farmer's former experiences with cattle-worrying dogs cause him to have similar feelings when he sees dogs off the leash. Anyway, my experiences lead me to deduce 2 things:

1) All dog owners *think* their dogs are well behaved - only very few actually are.
2) Putting a dog on a leash *shows* people that the dogs are under control. As others have said, if the cows charge for your dogs, let go and run the other way - but this is no reason not to have them on a lead to start with.

bestpud

Idiophreak wrote: »

How well behave the dogs are is mainly irrelevant, tbh - the leash is as much about perception/public confidence as much as it is about actually controlling the animal.

As a runner that's frightened of dogs, I can tell you that just having the thing on the leash puts my mind at rest, for the most part - I've lost count of the times I've been chased by "playful" dogs, tripped up by "spirited" puppies or had my path blocked by a "good boy!". I'm sure this farmer's former experiences with cattle-worrying dogs cause him to have similar feelings when he sees dogs off the leash. Anyway, my experiences lead me to deduce 2 things:

1) All dog owners *think* their dogs are well behaved - only very few actually are.
2) Putting a dog on a leash *shows* people that the dogs are under control. As others have said, if the cows charge for your dogs, let go and run the other way - but this is no reason not to have them on a lead to start with.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I often think dogs can be like children in that many owners think everyone else loves their little boy/girl as much as they do!