Unfair redundancy?

al_hunter

getmore4less wrote: »

Talk to ACAS, the company is not following the proper process.

20+ they need to do 30days(allthough this can be shorter with agreement) group consultations.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/Redundancy/DG_10029835
take note of protective orders and
the need for the employer to notify

You count service backwards from the leaving date

If 3 from your "pool" of 12 are being made redundant there should be selection criterea and scoring to select those to be made redundant and this should be part of te consultation.

Thanks. I was actually planning to give ACAS a call this evening for some advice. As far as I'm aware the Commercial Director and two Managing Quantity Surveyors sat down to discuss the "strengths and weaknesses" of each of the Surveyors about six weeks ago. Am I right in thinking that this is perfectly fair as they've assessed how our strengths and weaknesses may fit their now reduced business model? (The redundancies are being made as the turnover of the company drops drastically in the next two or three months due to jobs being won but being delayed in start dates and tenders they expected to win not being won). At 23rd October 2009, counting back four years to October 2005 (just into my first year of employment with the company) I was still under 21 - but only by a week (to the day!). Would I have strong grounds do you think to argue that I should be entitled to the full £380 (i.e. 4 years at £380 as opposed to the 3 I have currently been offered?)

I'm frustrated. I feel I've been shafted by this company, and to be honest, in hindsight, it doesn't surprise me - they have a reputation for messing subcontractors around with payment so it's hardly surprising they'd do it to their own employees too.

getmore4less

It is actualy service OVER 21 that counts so you need to be 22 to get the year per year.

looks like you have 2 full years and 2 half years which would rise to 3 full years and one 1/2 year if the date got delayed.

al_hunter

getmore4less wrote: »

It is actualy service OVER 21 that counts so you need to be 22 to get the year per year.

looks like you have 2 full years and 2 half years which would rise to 3 full years and one 1/2 year if the date got delayed.

!!!!!!!s! They've done me out of £190 by making me redundant a week before my 25th birthday! I can't believe it!

I've spoken to ACAS this morning - the lady there told me that the company didn't have to give any formal warning of risk of redundancy but that it was "good practice" to. She also said it was "good practice" to consult with those at risk, but again it wasn't compulsory.

The only grounds I have at the moment for complaint are that I have no idea how I've been selected - all I know at present is that it's happened by discussing the "strengths and weaknesses" of myself and each of my colleagues in the same profession. She said I should expect to see some sort of scoring matrix, which I can ask to see and see how I've been scored and how they came to the conclusion that I should be dismissed. She suggested that I should appeal their decision to make me redundant in writing.

I'm not really sure what to do next. I feel massively let down by the info from ACAS - was really hoping they'd tell me I'm entitled to be warned of redundancy.

jazzyman01

Sorry al-hunter - been away. Looks like things have moved on apace.

I would disagree with ACAS in that there is a requirement where more than 20 redundancies to have 30 day consultation.

You are at the point of being told you are being made redundant and therefore should have been given the matrix which they completed. Where there is no union representation then the Company usually has a ballot to elect representatives, if that is not forthcoming then there has to be individual consultation.

ACAS are right in that you should advise that you wish to appeal against the redundancy and ask for a copy of the selection matrix and the scores of the other job holders. Carefully go through the scoring and if you feel that they have been unfair in anyway, challenge this at the appeal. This is not only in the scoring but in the actual matrix data. For example, if they are using length of service for one of the main selection criterias you could challenge under age discrimination.

I will check something out for you because I believe that if they do not follow the fair consultation process then you can claim through ET for 90 days pay even though the consultation is 30 days. Will get back to you later this afternoon , so if you can hold off appealing until then, it may be useful.

Ideally if there were a number of them scoring, they should have completed individual matrix and from that collated a master document. Not always done though.

Regretably they can and will take the car off you on the date of your leaving.

You should have received everything in writing from them by now.

jazzyman01

Okay - done a quick check. You have stated that there are more than 20 likely to be made redundant.
I also have made some assumptions in my earlier note and if any of them are wrong, you need to let me know.
1) that there has been no selection of representatives and that there has been no union involvement or works council. If there had, then you would normally have been invited to meetings to discuss the Company proposals.
2) You have been made redundant based on a selection criteria that you have not seen and that, from the face of it, noone has had an input into.
3)There was no consultation at all, the only meeting that you have had was to inform you that you were selected for redundancy and you are expected to work your notice.
Given this information I think you may have a claimhen you would potentially have a claim for the 90 day award. Obviously you may not want to advise the Company of this potential payment and just appeal based on the selection criteria.

If you are not happy with ACAS, try CAB.

Let me know if you need anything more.

al_hunter

jazzyman01 wrote: »

Okay - done a quick check. You have stated that there are more than 20 likely to be made redundant.
I also have made some assumptions in my earlier note and if any of them are wrong, you need to let me know.
1) that there has been no selection of representatives and that there has been no union involvement or works council. If there had, then you would normally have been invited to meetings to discuss the Company proposals.
2) You have been made redundant based on a selection criteria that you have not seen and that, from the face of it, noone has had an input into.
3)There was no consultation at all, the only meeting that you have had was to inform you that you were selected for redundancy and you are expected to work your notice.
Given this information I think you may have a claimhen you would potentially have a claim for the 90 day award. Obviously you may not want to advise the Company of this potential payment and just appeal based on the selection criteria.

If you are not happy with ACAS, try CAB.

Let me know if you need anything more.

Thanks ever so much for your help. Very much appreciated. Your assumptions are all correct. The only problem I have is that I'm not certain how many have actually been made redundant. I know of at least 16 but the company employs 190 staff and I would say I don't know 90% of those, and I only know 2 other members of staff well enough for them to tell me if they'd been made redundant, and one of them hasn't. I'm told there is likely to be some sort of announcement next week with regards the redundancies, but until then I have to work on the assumption that there are more than 20 - we were told to expect a reduction of 30%, which, on 190 staff, works out at about 57 redundancies. Not including volutary redundancies and freelance staff I would guess there are probably in the region of 25-35 but it's difficult to say for certain.

At the moment I've drafted out a letter stating that I wish to see the scoring matrix. I've made no mention of an appeal for the simple reason that even if they retracted my redundancy I'm not sure I want to work for these any more - I feel I've been messed around enough in the last year and I don't need the stress involved in all this. If, however, it's likely that an appeal might win me some sort of compensation - I'm all for it!!

The ACAS lady intimated that I had to tell the company I was appealing and the discussion would be internal and if I wasn't happy with whatever I received I could then take it to an employment tribunal - is this correct?

jazzyman01

Yes - any appeal would be carried out within the business. If during the appeal it was clear that processes were not carried out and/or you were not given the opportunity to see the matrix or challenge it then you can claim at ET. The interesting thing is that most people claim for unfair selection in redundancy and that is difficult to show and the payment is only the statutory anyway. Going for failure to consult can net you 90 days pay as it is either yes or no!

al_hunter

Again, thanks for your response. I've just been and spoken with the HR lady at my current employers. She seems to think the memo sent round on 14th September was notice to all employees that they were at risk of redundancy. The inconsistency is that I know for a fact that in, for example, our buying department, where there are two members of staff, both were told in person that they were at risk of redundancy before one was made redundant. Whether or not my line manager was supposed to tell me I was at risk I don't know. What I do know is that my line manager too has now been made redundant, however I've not actually been able to speak to him about it as yet.

It's this consultation that I'm hazy on. I said to the HR girl that my major grievance was that I hadn't been consulted. She claimed that the memo classed as consultation, albeit not 1:1 and that they had gone about things in the correct manner, although the she did concede that the wording of the memo could have been better. I have copied and pasted the entirety of the last memo we had from the company on 14th September, which I am told is adequate notice that every employee of the company was at risk of redundancy.

Internal_Memo wrote:

Further to my memo dated 8th September and the subsequent staff meetings I’m writing to provide an update on the redundancy process and timetable that will be followed. Clearly this is a difficult issue for us all and the Directors are committed to dealing with it with speed, openness and honesty in line with our company values. The following process is therefore intended to strike a balance between providing enough time for proper consultation and discussion, whilst not unnecessarily prolonging any uncertainty.

We recognise that everyone’s personal circumstances are different and it may be that some individuals would prefer to take voluntary redundancy. If that applies to you please let xxxxxxxxxxxxx know by close of business on Friday 18th September, although please note that applications will not automatically be accepted. All other options for reducing the number of redundancies will also be considered including job sharing, sabbaticals, part time working, etc and should you be interested in exploring any of those please contact your Director this

week to arrange a confidential 1:1 discussion

The situation will be reviewed by the Directors on 21st September when the following will be considered;

• The extent to which the proposed 10% salary and working hour reductions have been agreed

• The number of volunteers for redundancy, if any, who have come forward

• Ideas and proposals arising from 1:1 discussions with individual members of staff

• The company's staff redundancy selection criteria
• The current and projected workload position

If as a result of that review compulsory redundancies are required, those affected will be individually advised by Friday 25th September

We will continue to make every effort to communicate fully throughout this difficult period, but should you wish to speak with me or any of the Directors at any time please don’t hesitate to make contact

jazzyman01

A few things.

The memo is not consultation. She does however refer to a number of staff meetings. If the meetings discussed the company difficulties and redundancies/ways to avoid redundancies, the Company may rely on these as being consultation.

Where there is no union recognition or works council then you should be given the option of electing representatives for consultation, this has not been done.

Even if she is relying on the meetings and memo of 14 September as being the "consultation" it was only 11 days prior to you being told you are redundant. Given that you had no input into the selection criteria, no consultation etc it is very risky to give notice of termination dates as you can still go for the 90 day award (were there more than 20 redundancies?)

I have to say that not setting consultation appointments with each potentially affected staff member is very, very sloppy. If the individuals dont want to attend, fine, but to put the onus on them to arrange 121's is poor.

al_hunter

jazzyman01 wrote: »

A few things.

The memo is not consultation. She does however refer to a number of staff meetings. If the meetings discussed the company difficulties and redundancies/ways to avoid redundancies, the Company may rely on these as being consultation.

Where there is no union recognition or works council then you should be given the option of electing representatives for consultation, this has not been done.

Even if she is relying on the meetings and memo of 14 September as being the "consultation" it was only 11 days prior to you being told you are redundant. Given that you had no input into the selection criteria, no consultation etc it is very risky to give notice of termination dates as you can still go for the 90 day award (were there more than 20 redundancies?)

I have to say that not setting consultation appointments with each potentially affected staff member is very, very sloppy. If the individuals dont want to attend, fine, but to put the onus on them to arrange 121's is poor.

Mostly on my part, we seem to be going over the same points and it's slowly but surely re-affirming what I thought originally - it's been poorly and unfairly handled. What grates is that I know for a fact some members of staff were consulted by the MD of the company. I assume this is because these members of staff possibly have no immediate "line manager" - in my case I have a Managing QS above me and a Commercial Director above him. It was the Commercial Director that delivered the news to me that I was being made redundant. I know for a fact, as I stated earlier, that, in our buying department, both members of staff were spoken to in person by the MD and told they were at risk before one of them was made redundant.

I will likely speak to CAB later today. My main concern is that, as things stand, and I may be mis-understanding what you're saying, but say I decided to appeal the decision to make me redundant and the company decided that they had made the wrong decision and retracted my notice etc and put me back to work, I'm not entirely sure I want to work for them after the treatment I've had in the last year (when the first company in the group I worked for were put into administration last year the Commercial Director who recently made me redundant told me "it could be worse")...