Neil Morrisey in Millions of £'s of debt due to Property Investment Collapse!!

LydiaJ

I can't speak for Martin, but I would imagine the bankruptcy board is there because without it, the bankrupts would post on DFW, which wouldn't help the "tough love" stance of DFW.

It may feel tempting for wiser and more prudent people to go on the bankruptcy board and tell the irreponsible ones exactly what they think of them, but I don't think it would achieve anything. Those of them who are willing to listen to that kind of thing at all are most likely to listen when what is being said is (A) not perceived either as a personal attack or as a blanket attack against all bankrupts whatever their unfortunate circumstances (B) not in a place where they were expecting to be safe from it and (C) not in a place where they can automatically discount it as "against the rules".

wageslave

I have never understood the whole non-judgemental thing. I am an adult, therefore I judge.
I judge people and situations every day and I hold other adults to exactly the same standards as I hold myself.
I judge politicians who pad their expenses and people who defraud the welfare system and thus deprive the most vunerable in our society.
I judge parents who wont look after their children and I judge social workers who make excuses for those same parents and leave children in dreadful, dangerous situations.
I judge the profiligate and the downright greedy.
I dont make excuses for myself, why should I make excuses for other adults?
If no-one had ever made a judgement about what is acceptable and what is not, debtors would still be in Newgate and little boys would still be forced up chimneys.

robin_banks

You know it never ceases to amaze when you see some SOA's -vet's fees !!!!!! is a common one.

Not that I'm being judgemental.

Graham_Devon

LydiaJ wrote: »

Well, I see their point. Support boards are for support - that's what they're for.

Support is one thing. Patting people on the back for going bankrupt and cheering them on etc isn't really support, it's a love in.

In my mind, people need help when they go bankrupt. A lot of it isn't actually help, it's jeering and congratulations, like they passed their driving test. Bankruptcy is a huge step, one which I wouldnt want to take, and I have the utmost to some people who have had to make that horrible choice.

However, it's reduced to nothing a lot of the time over there, egged on, encouraged etc. You could easily get someone weighing up the pro's and con's only to find themselves pulled in by all the patting on the back and "dont worry, its easy" posts, which is why I felt i HAD to say something once before this person (who was coping with their debts, just did not want them) made a life changing decision.

By that point, the person who was very reasaonble at the outset had had their mind changed by the "ease" of it all and didnt much like a different voice either reminding them of their responsibilities aswell as rights. By that point, they wanted their debts less.

A lot of the responsibilites of first paying the debts, secondly taking on debts, and thirdly, the responsibility of being bankrupt is overlooked. "How quick can I get a credit card" is often posted on there.

bendix

wageslave wrote: »

I have never understood the whole non-judgemental thing. I am an adult, therefore I judge.
I judge people and situations every day and I hold other adults to exactly the same standards as I hold myself.
I judge politicians who pad their expenses and people who defraud the welfare system and thus deprive the most vunerable in our society.
I judge parents who wont look after their children and I judge social workers who make excuses for those same parents and leave children in dreadful, dangerous situations.
I judge the profiligate and the downright greedy.
I dont make excuses for myself, why should I make excuses for other adults?
If no-one had ever made a judgement about what is acceptable and what is not, debtors would still be in Newgate and little boys would still be forced up chimneys.

Top post, except for one thing.

Debtors should still be imprisoned :-)

wageslave

robin_banks wrote: »

Not that I'm being judgemental.

I was raised on a council estate when they were still decent places to live. Everyone was in the same boat and everyone supported you when you needed it.
But by heavens, they judged you. They judged whether your house was clean enough and your kids well enough turned out. They judged your morals and your manners and this country was a far better place to live because of it.

LydiaJ

wageslave wrote: »

I have never understood the whole non-judgemental thing. I am an adult, therefore I judge.
I judge people and situations every day and I hold other adults to exactly the same standards as I hold myself.
I judge politicians who pad their expenses and people who defraud the welfare system and thus deprive the most vunerable in our society.
I judge parents who wont look after their children and I judge social workers who make excuses for those same parents and leave children in dreadful, dangerous situations.
I judge the profiligate and the downright greedy.
I dont make excuses for myself, why should I make excuses for other adults?
If no-one had ever made a judgement about what is acceptable and what is not, debtors would still be in Newgate and little boys would still be forced up chimneys.

I'm not advocating non-judgementalism in a moral-vacuum sort of way. I'm advocating non-attacking and non-condemning, especially in support environments.
Think of it this way.
Suppose you have done something really stupid, selfish and/or downright wrong.
However moronic and immoral your behaviour, it is 100% certain that you weren't trying to be moronic or immoral. What you did made sense to you at the time according to your wrong and stupid point of view.
If I come and attack you, you get defensive, and I achieve nothing.
If I make you feel understood, and I acknowledge your intrinsic value as a human being, you are more likely to listen to me. You may even seek my advice as a way out of your current predicament.
If it is obvious that I will perceive you as scum whatever you do from here on in, because the only way you could earn my regard would be to change the past (which you can't do) then you will feel there's no point in trying to do anything.
If instead I take the emphasis off your past mistakes and affirm the things you are now doing right, even if they are small, then you will feel encouraged to keep doing them and to do more.
If I listen to you, I discover why you did what you did. I can find ways to show you that your behaviour didn't actually make as much sense as you thought it did.

At its best, DFW does this (although it has its moments of encouraging people to remain in denial about whose responsibility their problems are). But it can't do it if it's not allowed to be "for support" rather than "for debate".

The non-condemning thing (to my mind) is about giving myself a better chance of getting through to you - which is the only thing I can do if I am talking to you on an internet forum (or indeed face to face). None of it is inconsistent with trying to change the situation by other means - like changing the bankruptcy rules so that it's harder to go bankrupt or more unpleasant when you do, or reporting you if you're commiting fraud, or whatever. The prison/chimneysweep reformers wouldn't have achieved anything by going on chimneysweep support forums and typing in messages telling the sweeps how wrong they were.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Support is one thing. Patting people on the back for going bankrupt and cheering them on etc isn't really support, it's a love in.

In my mind, people need help when they go bankrupt. A lot of it isn't actually help, it's jeering and congratulations, like they passed their driving test. Bankruptcy is a huge step, one which I wouldnt want to take, and I have the utmost to some people who have had to make that horrible choice.

However, it's reduced to nothing a lot of the time over there, egged on, encouraged etc. You could easily get someone weighing up the pro's and con's only to find themselves pulled in by all the patting on the back and "dont worry, its easy" posts, which is why I felt i HAD to say something once before this person (who was coping with their debts, just did not want them) made a life changing decision.

By that point, the person who was very reasaonble at the outset had had their mind changed by the "ease" of it all and didnt much like a different voice either reminding them of their responsibilities aswell as rights. By that point, they wanted their debts less.

A lot of the responsibilites of first paying the debts, secondly taking on debts, and thirdly, the responsibility of being bankrupt is overlooked. "How quick can I get a credit card" is often posted on there.

Totally agree. Didn't mean to give the impression I thought anything different.

movingforward2010

wageslave wrote: »

I must be a nasty piece of work too because I totally agree with Bendix. The following were taken from a cursory glance at the first page of the bankruptcy forum. I am sure, if I put my mind to it, I could find many more.

I don't think it will affect his employment, we rent our house (at a reduced rent) from my parents, I am a bit worried we might lose one of the cars

Shame about the car - but you'll soon be in a position to get another.

Did you make a token offer? It is all based on your financial statement, turn up to court with a financial statement showing that you can only afford £1

Well if they pay decrease isn't likely to last you're right - best not let them look into figures too closely again!

oh come off it, most people on the BR boards have a car worth about £500.

most people have got in to trouble after house repo's, relationship break up's, redundancy. Its not fair to tar all on that board with the same brush, for 99.9% of the people on there bankrupcy has come after months if not years of tears, and hard work trying to repay money after one of the above mentioned issues,daily harassment and mental torment from creditors and debt collection agencies, and was the very last resort and a extreamly hard decision to make which will effect them for a very long time, plus the ongoing comments they will be forever subjected to by someone like yourself. Its not a decision they decided to take off the cuff and when they took out credit they didnt do it to go bankrupt.

i just dont think its fair to label all bankrupts as lying, thieving, cheaters who are worth less to society than a murderer. Plus you might be friends with an ex-bankrupt and not even know it!

movingforward2010

FallenAngel9898 wrote: »

I'll be judgemental, many of the posters over there are a joke, they should never ever be let off with the 'ease' of bankruptcy. Many of them have not had a change of circumstances or tried to get a business off the ground (of which maybe legitimate reasons), they are just plainly thick with money, and need to be taught a lesson not be let off scot free.

Bring it on.:D

and what lesson do you suggest ? death row?

movingforward2010

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Support is one thing. Patting people on the back for going bankrupt and cheering them on etc isn't really support, it's a love in.

In my mind, people need help when they go bankrupt. A lot of it isn't actually help, it's jeering and congratulations, like they passed their driving test. Bankruptcy is a huge step, one which I wouldnt want to take, and I have the utmost to some people who have had to make that horrible choice.

However, it's reduced to nothing a lot of the time over there, egged on, encouraged etc. You could easily get someone weighing up the pro's and con's only to find themselves pulled in by all the patting on the back and "dont worry, its easy" posts, which is why I felt i HAD to say something once before this person (who was coping with their debts, just did not want them) made a life changing decision.

By that point, the person who was very reasaonble at the outset had had their mind changed by the "ease" of it all and didnt much like a different voice either reminding them of their responsibilities aswell as rights. By that point, they wanted their debts less.

A lot of the responsibilites of first paying the debts, secondly taking on debts, and thirdly, the responsibility of being bankrupt is overlooked. "How quick can I get a credit card" is often posted on there.

i totally agree with you Graham, people shouldnt encouraged to go bankrupt at all and see it as a easy quick way out so they can run out and get credit on discharge. But all the patting on the back is after the hard decision has been made and made 100% sure its right for them, after they been to court and interrogated by the official receiver, i dont think people supporting the BR are actively encouraging people to rack up £20k of debt and run off to the court to get out of paying it.