Unenforceability & Template Letters

moo_cow

thanks a million

:beer:

captainhaggis

Hi all,

Anyone wanna take a look at my CCA/App Form from LTSB to see whether or not it looks enforceable?

They sent these two sheets to me along with another document (seven pages) called "Credit Card Agreement" but this document is just a typed up list of rules etc and could have been done by anyone at any time.

Thanks

http://s991.photobucket.com/albums/af35/captainhaggis/

never-in-doubt

captainhaggis wrote: »

Hi all,

Anyone wanna take a look at my CCA/App Form from LTSB to see whether or not it looks enforceable?

They sent these two sheets to me along with another document (seven pages) called "Credit Card Agreement" but this document is just a typed up list of rules etc and could have been done by anyone at any time.

Thanks

http://s991.photobucket.com/albums/af35/captainhaggis/

From first glance it looks ok to me, can you confirm though whether your name and address was ever typed in (have you deleted it prior to posting) or was it always blank? If it was always blank then it wouldn't be enforceable cos it could be anybodys (is it your signature or is it signed by them?).....

It could well be a 'true copy' in which case you can either SAR them to see the original they have (if any) or at least send the dispute letter off just to cover yourself.....

captainhaggis

never-in-doubt wrote: »

From first glance it looks ok to me, can you confirm though whether your name and address was ever typed in (have you deleted it prior to posting) or was it always blank? If it was always blank then it wouldn't be enforceable cos it could be anybodys (is it your signature or is it signed by them?).....

It could well be a 'true copy' in which case you can either SAR them to see the original they have (if any) or at least send the dispute letter off just to cover yourself.....

Hiya fella,

Thanks - they sent this to me and said that "there is no requirement under the CCA to provide you with a copy of the original signed agreement, but notwithstanding that fact, please find enclosed such a copy for your records".

The ONLY THING I've blanked out on the CCA is my signature (with date).

The CCA they've sent me has no mention of the credit card number or an account number and in the area where name and address should appear, they're simply blank. They don't appear to have had any information removed.

Lloyds sent a note about s78 or the CCA 1974 and it says that the CCA authorises "the omission from a copy of certain material contained in the original". Could this include my name and address and, if so, could that information be on the actual original?

I doubt it, for this looks like a straight photocopy or re-print from scan.

They've said that "having satisfied our obligation under section 78, the agreement have with [them] is fully enforceable and [they] will continue to treat it as such. [They] will not be entering in to any other correspondence with [me] regarding the provision of copy agreements".

- and the signature is/was mine (maybe - noncommital!)

- by the looks of things, the application and CCA were on the same piece of paper (i.e. the app form says to see the agreement before applying/signing). Could they argue that the fact my address IS on the application form satisfies the requirement to have it on the CCA?

never-in-doubt

captainhaggis wrote: »

Hiya fella,

Thanks - they sent this to me and said that "there is no requirement under the CCA to provide you with a copy of the original signed agreement, but notwithstanding that fact, please find enclosed such a copy for your records".

The ONLY THING I've blanked out on the CCA is my signature (with date).

The CCA they've sent me has no mention of the credit card number or an account number and in the area where name and address should appear, they're simply blank. They don't appear to have had any information removed.

Ok, so its not enforceable then - the account number means little so ignore that mate. Just send the dispute letter/s.10 and ignore them and cease payments. It needs your personal details on there such as name and address.....

If they dispute your claim then they will either send the original (a photocopy) or send bailiffs in which case you SAR them and remind the bailiff no action can be taken whilst in dispute.

captainhaggis

never-in-doubt wrote: »

Ok, so its not enforceable then - the account number means little so ignore that mate. Just send the dispute letter/s.10 and ignore them and cease payments. It needs your personal details on there such as name and address.....

If they dispute your claim then they will either send the original (a photocopy) or send bailiffs in which case you SAR them and remind the bailiff no action can be taken whilst in dispute.

Hi again - this is great news.

I think I've got three defaults on my accounts and I believe this to be one of them so I don't care about stopping payments. Do I need to tell them WHY I (we) think the agreement is unenforceable?

They seem to think it is, so would sending them a letter saying it's in dispute not just p*ss them off and get us in to an arguement unless I tell them exactly WHY it's not enforceable?

Cheers :beer:

never-in-doubt

captainhaggis wrote: »

Hi again - this is great news.

I think I've got three defaults on my accounts and I believe this to be one of them so I don't care about stopping payments. Do I need to tell them WHY I (we) think the agreement is unenforceable?

They seem to think it is, so would sending them a letter saying it's in dispute not just p*ss them off and get us in to an arguement unless I tell them exactly WHY it's not enforceable?

Cheers :beer:

Just say it is not enforceable as the prescribed terms are not intact (should already say this on the template though - page 1?)....

If they write back ignore it - you hold the ace card, not them

captainhaggis

captainhaggis wrote: »

Hi again - this is great news.

I think I've got three defaults on my accounts and I believe this to be one of them so I don't care about stopping payments. Do I need to tell them WHY I (we) think the agreement is unenforceable?

They seem to think it is, so would sending them a letter saying it's in dispute not just p*ss them off and get us in to an arguement unless I tell them exactly WHY it's not enforceable?

Cheers :beer:

Just to confirm mate, am I sending the s.10 "Account in Dispute - Section 10 Notice" or the "CCA Request Query Letter"??

On reading through them, the latter seems more appropriate?

They also sent me another agreement which was typed out and not signed by anyone (but this one DOES include my name and address) so I suspect just an update of the original. I guess I can ignore it because the one that has the signature is the important one?

- oh, and although I've signed it, nobody from LTSB has done and I believe they need to have signed it, too.

never-in-doubt

CCA Request Query Letter

Dear Sirs,

Account No: XXXXXXXX

On xx/xx/2009 I wrote to you requesting a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account. In response to this request I was supplied a document, a copy of which is attached, which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974).

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain all of the prescribed terms as required by s.60(1) CCA1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required.

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection;

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states;

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you or any organisation, which you represent for this alleged debt, if you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards.

Since the agreement is unenforceable, it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for you to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days.

Yours faithfully




Sign digitally

captainhaggis

never-in-doubt wrote: »

CCA Request Query Letter

Dear Sirs,

Account No:

Thanks a million! Was just confused cos earlier you'd said to

never-in-doubt wrote: »

....Just send the dispute letter/s.10 and ignore them and cease payments.

So I shall cancel payments with immediate effect and get the above in the post to them - signed for - tomorrow morning.

- but, do I not edit the letter a little? The letter says that the CCA didn't include ANY of the terms prescribed. Should I say "some of the terms"?