Doing the electrics myself?

timmay2606

I'm looking for some advice from someone who knows these things...

I'm installing a new kitchen in a couple of months time and will be gutting the room: new floor, skirting boards, plaster, ceiling etc; basically - the full monty! Whilst I wouldn't try plumbing myself, I would be very confident (though not cocky) handling the electrics in order to save a bit of money.

I'm familiar with regulations on cable lengths, socket heights, fuse ratings etc, and believe that I could plan and install without too much bother - especially as the room will be down to the bare bricks and floor joists.

I'm also aware that building regs say that I need to have the work done by a Part P certfied electrician. My question is:

Do I need to get them in at the start and forget about doing it myself, or can I do the work and have it tested afterwards?

Oh, and any thoughts on where to find a good sparky?

Thanks in advance for your help

Timmay!

Canucklehead

timmay2606 wrote: »

I'm looking for some advice from someone who knows these things...

I'm installing a new kitchen in a couple of months time and will be gutting the room: new floor, skirting boards, plaster, ceiling etc; basically - the full monty! Whilst I wouldn't try plumbing myself, I would be very confident (though not cocky) handling the electrics in order to save a bit of money.

I'm familiar with regulations on cable lengths, socket heights, fuse ratings etc, and believe that I could plan and install without too much bother - especially as the room will be down to the bare bricks and floor joists.

I'm also aware that building regs say that I need to have the work done by a Part P certfied electrician. My question is:

Do I need to get them in at the start and forget about doing it myself, or can I do the work and have it tested afterwards?

Oh, and any thoughts on where to find a good sparky?

Thanks in advance for your help

Timmay!

Good afternoon: Advice is available here

HTH

Canucklehead

AdrianW2

You don't have to use a registered electrician, you can do the work yourself provided you notice building control yourself *before* you start and comply with their inspections.

If you want to find a sparky, try http://www.competentperson.co.uk/search.asp

zax47

AdrianW2 wrote: »

You don't have to use a registered electrician, you can do the work yourself provided you notice building control yourself *before* you start ..........

And pay them a fee of between £125 and £300 depending on where you are in the country. They will want to see evidence of design and installation which complies with BS7671:2008 17th Edition wiring regulations. The work has to meet Part P of the building regulations which by definition means compliance with BS7671:2008 (as guidance for best practice). They will need to inspect first fix (before wires get hidden/plastered over etc.), second fix and all your test results for all the circuits installed/amended (IR, continuity, polarity, PFC etc.) but of course you will have a deep working knowledge of BS7671:2008, approved installation methods and all the necessary skills and (expensive and specialised) equipment to do the tests won't you.

I wondered why I ever bothered to become an electrician sometimes!

timmay2606: Take your own advice and get a registered/qualified sparky in. If nothing else he can certify the job himself via his Part P scheme provider and mean you keep LABC (and their fee!) away!

Canucklehead

zax47 wrote: »

I wondered why I ever bothered to become an electrician sometimes!

Hi...my OH often wonders the same about his gas registration...fortunately there are clients out there who value and will use the services of qualified and competent tradespersons.

Canucklehead

timmay2606

Thanks for the info - have I got this right - it would probably cost more to have Building Control inspect and test the plans and installation than it would to get a suitably qualified and registered sparky in?

Is there any way that I can save money - e.g. obtain the materials & run the cables myself, then get the sparky to connect it all up?

Any thoughts?

AdrianW2

No need to get upset, just attempting to answer the OP's question. I don't understand this antagonism, professional lorry drivers don't complain about people hiring vans to move house.

On the subject of testing - I was under the impression that the inspector would carry out the tests, not the installer, the installer being unable to self-certify. Am I wrong?

Just for further clarity, and not to have a dig at anyone, BS7671 is not actually a requirement of the building regulations it's just by far the easiest way of complying with them.

AdrianW2

timmay2606 wrote: »

Is there any way that I can save money - e.g. obtain the materials & run the cables myself, then get the sparky to connect it all up?

zax has commented before that he/she prefers to supply materials that he/she is happy working with.

So the only way to be sure is to get a professional to price the job up and then compare it with doing it yourself. At this point this comment from the Screwfix sparky forum might be relevant:

"Last time i checked there is no law against how much traders can charged. We live in a market economy for god sake, and we are all free to charge what we like. Up to the client to negotiate or phone other leccy's etc. But in Rogue Trader, that never happens. ''clients'' always accept the quote without questions, why ??"

zax47

Thanks for the info - have I got this right - it would probably cost more to have Building Control inspect and test the plans and installation than it would to get a suitably qualified and registered sparky in?

Yes. Using a registered sparky, who can notify the works via his Part P registration body eliminates you dealing with your LABC (Local Authority Building Control) and paying them a hefty fee for inspecting and certifying the work as being approved to Part P.

Is there any way that I can save money - e.g. obtain the materials & run the cables myself, then get the sparky to connect it all up?

No registered sparky should certify work/installation he didn't do, the scheme providers (NICEIC, NAPIT ELECSA etc.) don't let us - they actively discourage it.

Get at least 3 quotes, make sure they are members of a Part P registration body like NICEIC, NAPIT, ELECSA etc. using the link given before (www.competentperson.couk)

zax47

AdrianW2 wrote: »

No need to get upset, just attempting to answer the OP's question.

Not upset - it's just that you only really gave half an answer, yes you CAN do it yourself but be aware of just what skills/knowledge you will need and the hoops you will have to jump through to comply with all the things the LABC need you to do/supply in order to get them to certify it's compliance with Part P.

It's less hassle and ultimately less costly in time and money to employ a registered sparky for a job like this.

On the subject of testing - I was under the impression that the inspector would carry out the tests, not the installer, the installer being unable to self-certify. Am I wrong?

If the installer is unable to self-certify directly to a Part P registration body then the LABC will require to inspect at first fix, second fix and completion. The "inspector" will often be less qualified than the (DIY) installer and will be looking to him to provide a full "schedule of test results" (STR) along with some sort of paperwork defining the scope of the works and who is responsible for the design, installation and testing of the installation (this would be an EIC issued by the installing sparky!) He certainly won't do the tests himself - he didn't do the installation and probably won't have the skills/knowledge or equipment to do so. If you (the installer) can't provide an STR and something like an EIC (Electrical Installation Certificate) then they have the right to instruct a suitably qualified 3rd party to do the testing. In addition, you must consider what potential extra expense are you liable for if the tests fail in any way and remedial works need to be done?.

{what follows is copyright material courtesy of Ban-all-sheds and www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk}

"Another important point to note is that apart from a Building Inspector, nobody can certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations. Unless arranged by or in cooperation with LABC, a 3rd party electrical inspection is of no value in terms of complying with the law.

In practice what this means is that if you do DIY notifiable work then you cannot get a 3rd party (registered electrician or otherwise) to certify the work as being in compliance with BS7671 and thus Part P . You MUST contact your LABC directly to arrange this BEFORE you commence work, as they will want to inspect at 1st fix stage and at completion. (Although LABC MAY appoint a 3rd party to carry out inspection and testing for them, they may not levy additional charges for this)"

Just for further clarity, and not to have a dig at anyone, BS7671 is not actually a requirement of the building regulations it's just by far the easiest way of complying with them.

Hence my referring to BS7671:2008 as "guidance for best-practice". However;

{what follows is copyright material courtesy of Ban-all-sheds and www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk}

"Approved Document P states: P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury.

It is worth noting however that they apply to all work, not just notifiable work, no matter who does it. So a DIYer adding a socket or a fused spur to a ring final circuit must work to the same technical standards as a registered electrician doing a complete rewire. These technical standards are those enshrined in BS7671:2008, the 17th Edition IEE wiring regulations.

The biggest practical issue that arises is testing. To carry out testing of electrical circuits requires expertise and specialized (and expensive and certified as calibrated) equipment, neither of which are likely to be possessed by the average DIYer. So although Part P potentially allows a DIYer to replace an entire circuit cable if it is damaged, without notification, it is arguable that he could not be sure that he had done it properly unless he carried out, and recorded, the correct series of tests on it - something he would probably be unable to do.

The IEE Wiring Regulations, aka BS 7671:2008
Part P does not alter the status of the IEE Wiring Regulations. They are still non-statutory, and there is still no legal requirement to adhere to them in domestic installations. This is a source of great discomfort to many electricians but the fact remains that they are not.

HOWEVER, adherence to them is the only way of ensuring that you meet the technical requirements of Part P, and you would need a very good reason, and a very good understanding of what you were doing, to decide to not adhere to them."

zax47

andrew-b wrote: »

Easier to get someone in. To cut costs you could maybe do some bits yourself - like channelling out the walls, fitting backing boxes, putting in conduit, feeding cables through so they are ready to connect but discuss with the electrician so you don't waste your time channelling out walls in the wrong place or running the wrong sized cable etc.

Unfortunately Part P makes it difficult now if you want to legally do alot of electrical jobs yourself ..even if you are capable of turning a screwdriver and spending time to familiarise yourself with the regs and can afford the testing equipment!

I can recall pre-partp when my father completely rewired the whole of my sister's house following all the regs and it was a simple case of the electricity board doing the final connect up. Did it make it unsafe? No it didn't..though obviously for someone who doesn't bother looking at the regs and just shoves a few cables in it's a different story! Unfortunately those days are gone and bureaucracy dominates with the excuse of safety..though it would be interesting to know whether the bureaucracy has actually made things safer..or whether it's just keeping electricians in business! Difficult to know but are there any electricians who aren't busy?

Andy

I agree with your sentiments entirely Andy, but most electricians I know (and on the various trade forums) do not see "Part P" as being beneficial to their business in anyway - far from it. It has meant that well qualified, time served, skilled, knowledgeable guys (and girls!) have been told they can no longer "legally" do their job unless they go on a £500+ course to tell them stuff they already know and pay £450+ each year to be part of an additional registration scheme they don't want or need! It hasn't helped anyone at all, just put another level of bureaucracy in our daily work and money in the pockets of the mandatory registration scheme (or scam) providers! Do you know just how many prosecutions there have been for failing to comply with Part P? I won't spoil the anticipation by answering that, suffice to say it is a very small number - something for you all to Google when you get a free minute.

If there are any electricians who are busier because of Part P then they are few and far between! We will, however, remain busy putting things right after well meaning DIYer's with a little knowledge have made a complete !!!!-up of things and left their domestic installation in a dangerous state whilst trying to save a few bob.