Recurring Payments Warning! discussion

Hermit

Thank you for such a comprehensive response. I have the following comments to the questions raised

dalesrider wrote: »

Why do people assume that stopping a card will stop CPA....
Can I ask at that point did you tell them that you wanted to stop further payments?

Yes. The first transaction was not a recurring payment. Initially, I thought the transaction was fraudulent but later found it to be an error associated with Apple's App Store. At the time, I asked that the card be cancelled and all future payments stopped. The bank confirmed that there were no pending transactions waiting to be applied to the account and issued a new card.

dalesrider wrote: »

But how can this be the 1st recuring payments. As you had already had one prior to stopping the card.
T/C of period of free hosting ? Mention anything about cancelling before the end?

This transaction was unrelated to the first and was the first recurring payment.

dalesrider wrote: »

Well both Visa & mastercard have systems that allow retailer to access the new card details where a CPA is set up.
I have bolded a bit as this is untrue. Once you have told them you want no further debits then under PSD (payment services directive) they have to refund these, straight away. once you have made them aware of the debit.
The agreement you have signed means nothing as far as EU/FOS/FSA are concerned.
If it is a binding agreement for a fixed period. Then it is upto the retailer to chase you via legal means.

As a matter of fact, how do banks and card companies differentiate between recurring and other regular payment options such as DDs and SOs? When I spoke with the Halifax, they were only able to identify recurring payments based on transactions of equal value and with identical recipients. If that is the case, all transactions (recurring or otherwise) are placed on an equal footing were card validation/verification is concerned - in other words, all payment requests for cancelled cards would be declined instantly.

You state that "Once you have told them you want no further debits...". I told the bank that I wanted to stop all future payments with the card. This was a blanket request for ALL future payments not just those relating to the recurring payment. Should I have been more specific in my request?

dalesrider wrote: »

In effect yes. At presnet no card provider has a system in place to block CPA's. Once cancelled with the bank. At the moment only a retailer can stop the payments.. Yes Halifax can send a letter to retailer merchant bank, but they still can ignore that.
These are not fraud payments. As per their T/C which you agreed to.

If Visa & Mastercard have systems that allow retailers to access new card details where a CPA is set up, does this mean that the only way one might effectively stop a recurring payment will be to close the account and re-open a new bank account? I told the bank that I'm considering doing just that... but I don't want to do that every time I find a suspect transaction (obviously I would have to be careful about entering into recurring agreements).

dalesrider wrote: »

You need to speak to the disputes department and not the front line call center.
Clearly the person you spoke too. Does not have a understanding of PSD.

I certainly will speak with the disputes team as previous conversations with customer service staff have been frustrating to say the least. The PSD will be at the forefront of our conversation.

dalesrider wrote: »

Have you at any point contacted the retailer to cancel ????

Yes. We are still in the process of resolving this issue... and that is precisely where I believe the issue should reside - between the merchant and myself and not the bank.

dalesrider

Hermit wrote: »

As a matter of fact, how do banks and card companies differentiate between recurring and other regular payment options such as DDs and SOs? When I spoke with the Halifax, they were only able to identify recurring payments based on transactions of equal value and with identical recipients. If that is the case, all transactions (recurring or otherwise) are placed on an equal footing were card validation/verification is concerned - in other words, all payment requests for cancelled cards would be declined instantly.

Can't comment on other banks. But ALL transactions have a Catsic code to identify retailer type and one of these is maked for subscriptions.
Also out systems have a Y/N to show if retailer has marked as a CPA.

Hermit wrote: »

You state that "Once you have told them you want no further debits...". I told the bank that I wanted to stop all future payments with the card. This was a blanket request for ALL future payments not just those relating to the recurring payment. Should I have been more specific in my request?

Telling then that you want to stop all payments to Apple App store would be enough.
But will not stop them from debiting, only allow them to return to apple and credit you back as soon as you advise them.

Hermit wrote: »

If Visa & Mastercard have systems that allow retailers to access new card details where a CPA is set up, does this mean that the only way one might effectively stop a recurring payment will be to close the account and re-open a new bank account? I told the bank that I'm considering doing just that... but I don't want to do that every time I find a suspect transaction (obviously I would have to be careful about entering into recurring agreements).

A back account/credit is never closed to these transactions and it will reopen if apple pass a trans through. So they will just use the old details.
It is possible to make a CPA as closed on the Visa/mastercard systems if the retailer is listed on there. But in my experiance many simply ignore this. :mad:

Hermit wrote: »

I certainly will speak with the disputes team as previous conversations with customer service staff have been frustrating to say the least. The PSD will be at the forefront of our conversation.

Good. They will be best placed to advise you. But be aware that PSD is not the be all to end all.

Hermit wrote: »

Yes. We are still in the process of resolving this issue... and that is precisely where I believe the issue should reside - between the merchant and myself and not the bank.

One issue with Apple is the in App purchase.
ie. You download a FREE game app. But within this is the option to purchase extra lives etc. many children do not realise that this costs real money. This is something that as many people as possible want to complain to Apple about. Maybe then they will stop this crazy feature.... I know of people who have had £100's debited and then been refunded for these by apple....

Bear in mind that Apple will suspend the acc if payments are chargedback.
Better to remove card details (use topup card from supermarket) for further purchases.

Arthurian

Just a reminder of the FSA's position on this:-

"Cancelling a regular card payment
When you give your credit or debit card details to a company and authorise them to take regular payments from your account, such as for a gym membership or magazine subscription, it is known as a ‘recurring transaction’ or ‘continuous payment authority’.

These are often confused with direct debits, but do not offer the same guarantee if the amount or date of the payment changes.

In most cases, regular payments can be cancelled by telling the company taking the payments. However, you have the right to cancel them directly with your bank or card issuer by telling it that you have stopped permission for the payments. Your bank or card issuer must then stop them – it has no right to insist that you agree this first with the company taking the payments.

Be aware though that you will still be responsible for paying any money that you owe."

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/consumerinformation/product_news/banking/know_your_rights/payments

dalesrider

Arthurian wrote: »

Just a reminder of the FSA's position on this:-

In most cases, regular payments can be cancelled by telling the company taking the payments. However, you have the right to cancel them directly with your bank or card issuer by telling it that you have stopped permission for the payments. Your bank or card issuer must then stop them – it has no right to insist that you agree this first with the company taking the payments.

Be aware though that you will still be responsible for paying any money that you owe."

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/consumerinformation/product_news/banking/know_your_rights/payments

This is a fantastic bit of requlation that the EU (not FSA, they mearly passed it onto the UK banks) put forward. But they have never at any point talked to Visa/mastercard, who are the people who could actually put something in place to stop a CPA.
The banks are powerless to stop a payment to a individual retailer.
What many people forget is that a retailer takes the money, not the bank sending it to them.

But what you also have to take on board. Is that many of these retailer do not process their payments as CPA. As such it is not as easy to deal with.

Even after writing to the retailers merchants bank. These retailers, who take the money are still doing it.

The FSA are also forcing banks to break the contract that they have agreed with Visa/Mastercard in terms of payments. Having said that, the retailers are also breaking this same regulation. And as such, as has been actioned for years a C/B is avaiable to reclaim the funds.

In reality PSD needs to be fully revisted by ALL parties and something put in place that is actually workable. Not the total mess it is now.

Arthurian

But wouldn't the EU regulation, and the FSA position mentioned, over-rule any previous contract between the retailer and the bank?

dalesrider

Arthurian wrote: »

But wouldn't the EU regulation, and the FSA position mentioned, over-rule any previous contract between the retailer and the bank?

With a CPA there is no contract between the retailer and the bank. It is a customer/retailer agreement. Unlike a DD, where the bank hold a mandate.

So in effect the Eu reg is saying that any contract you sign/agree to is worthless.

Why should a bank be expected to stand between a customer and a retailer. When the retailer may have a legal right to the money. Such as customer agrees to a 12 month contract. Then tells bank does not want to pay it anymore part way through the contract.

While in someways PSD is a good idea. In practise it is a iffy piece of regulation. That has not been fully thought out.

Sooner or later some retailer will take it all the way to the EU and they will have to rule on its legality where a agreed contract is in place.

loulourocks3004

So i just called my bank to cancel a Recurring Paymetn Authority and they told me they can try but its unlikely it will be succesful! I thought they were legally bound to do this? I now cant use that bank account because they are unwilling to do this. He said that even if i move to another bank account with a different institution that the company would still find me and take the money!! I told him i think he is wrong and he said he isnt! I am utterly disgusted with Lloyds and obviously they are not trained as they should be on these issues. I have no idea what to do now. I have written a complaint to Lloyds, however i need this cancelled asap. Any advice?

loulourocks3004

Forgot to say, if my card has expired and i have new one, can they still take payments?

meer53

loulourocks3004 wrote: »

So i just called my bank to cancel a Recurring Paymetn Authority and they told me they can try but its unlikely it will be succesful! I thought they were legally bound to do this? I now cant use that bank account because they are unwilling to do this. He said that even if i move to another bank account with a different institution that the company would still find me and take the money!! I told him i think he is wrong and he said he isnt! I am utterly disgusted with Lloyds and obviously they are not trained as they should be on these issues. I have no idea what to do now. I have written a complaint to Lloyds, however i need this cancelled asap. Any advice?

They are trained, and the member of staff at Lloyds is correct. The best thing to do is to cancel the CPA with the company you set it up with. Then if there are any further transactions Lloyds can dispute these for you.

There are regulations in place regarding CPA's but unfortunately, the people who put the regulations in place forgot to check whether the banks systems could actually carry out what they promised. They can't.

Why can't you use your account ?

Yes, they can claim payments from an expired card, or one that is replaced.

Gromitt

It doesn't matter if you cancel your card, the card expires or you close the account. When the payment is presented, it will re-open your account with a debit balance. The bank will then chase you for payment. Failure to pay will result in the account defaulting and being referred to a debt collection agency.

So if you want the payment to stop, you must contact the company concerned. Once you have cancelled the payment authorisation, you can dispute any further payments.