Loft Conversion - Advice

jonny2510

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread. (but it's pretty relevant to what I want to ask).

I'm looking at converting our loft into just storage space.

Currently there is a tiny access hole with no ladders. The loft itself is filthy with nothing but 2 aerials up there. Insulation is visible, as are party an outside brick walls. Felt underneath roof is visible

I want to have the access hatch moved (it's currently in a small cupboard, which I don't think extending ladders will fit in) to the hallway, and have some (wooden) ladders fitted (as I believe they are the most stable).

I also need the loft boarding out (it's a semi-detacahed that I think is 95 sq feet)

I don't want to live/sleep up there, or make a room of it, and just want to use it to store stuff that isn't used on a daily basis.

Can anyone provide an idea as to

1) How much this might cost (I live in the north-west)?
2) If I'll need to get any planning permission for this?
3) If it would be resonable to ask the builder/carpeners to put down new/additional insualtion before putting the boards down (the survey stated the thickness needs to be increased), or even if this is a standard thing that these people do?

Ian.nb

If you are reasonably competent, loft conversions can be done on the cheap - I've just done mine, but there are lots of things to be aware of if you want to have a useable room and get the maximum gains from being able to sell your house with an extra bedroom or two.

Firstly plan what you want and create a drawing. Anyone can create a reasonable representation of what they want to achieve with a pencil and a ruler. Think about the dimensions. Do they work? Will the rooms be the right size. Is there enough headroom? As a general rule building control inspectors will let you get away with headrooms less than the regulations state, but it is a matter of personal choice.

One you've got your drawing, head down to the local building control office. Speak to the chief engineer or the officer who will deal with your case. They are usually quite happy to volounteer lots of information that will help you assess the viability of your project, and also things you hadn't even considered.

As an example I wanted to use (and have had to due to available size) an alternate tread stair case (as an aside, and I have no affiliation to this company, a self assembly alternate tread staircase, made to measure only cost a couple of hundred quid from https://www.stairplan.co.uk - great quality and top spec). The chief building control officer around here doesn't like alternate tread staircases, and tried to 'bribe' me into not fitting one by agreeing to 'waive' certain other regs!!!! (If I hadn't already bought and installed the alternate tread stair, fitting a kite twist stair would have saved me having to fit a small dormer over the rising point of the staircase, saving a few hundred quid and a lot of hassle in the process.

The building control officer will also give his opinion as to wether you require planning permission. Mine suggested I paid £12 and submitted my proposals for determination. This gave me a letter stating I did not need planning permission, which is a formal record for when I sell the house. For the sake of £12, I think it was worth it.

The Building control fees annoyed me. the usual way they charge is on a 'cost of works' basis, rising per £1000 of the cost of the works being carried out. Except for loft conversion where they assume you cannot get it done for less than £12000, so this is their minimum charge level. (For the record, I budgetted £4000, total cost)

I fitted the staircase on a saturday with assistance from a builder friend for the grand sum of a case of lager. I then employed him to fit new joists in the loft. to maximise head room I opted for six inch joists. After getting the joists in, I asked the building inspector to come in and make his first visit. His calculations showed that the beam deflection of the joists over the 4m span were (get this) 2mm over tolerance. I begged and pleaded, but to no avail. I pointed out that I did not want to go to 8" joists as I would loose too much head room. He eventually agreed to let me keep 6" joists but I had to move them from 12 to 10 inch centres, which meant having to pay to have the joist I had paid for being installed, removed and refitted.

In some ways, this was a good thing as when I next invited the inspector to look at the job, he came, saw I had done exactly as he stipulated, and on my asking when he next wanted to see the job, he replied "call me when it is finished"!!!!

I am a qualified electrical engineer, who has been working in the heating industry for more years than I care to remember, so wiring and plumbing were done by myself. The cheapest place I have found for tools, electrical, plumbing and general hardware is https://www.toolstation.com. Everything for my loft conversion came from them.

Insulation is extremely important. I fitted 2" thick foil backed phenolic kingspan between the rafters, and over laid this witah a tri-iso-super-9 insulation blanket before plaster boarding. I note someones comments about noise. Partly to overcome this and also because I am anal about insulation I also installed a double layer of "sheetrock" (compressed mineral wool insulation, 2" thick) between the joists.

Plastering quotes varied from £800 to £1200, but I managed to find two local lads who did it in a day for £250. Don't just get numbers from yellow pages, ask around, there are lots of tradesmen who will do "guvvy" jobs for a fraction of the price.

Before you do the loft, think about the floor below. Could you want to change the lighting in the future? Will the house need re-wiring soon? Doing it now will be a lot easier as there is no floor up in the loft at present. We opted to totally re-wire the upstairs lighting circuits, installing low voltage lighting where wanted.

Things you may not realise.

It is now a requirement, when extending a building upwards, to have a mains powered, linked smoke alarm on every floor.

You will need to change every door that opens onto the escape route (practically every door in the house) to a half hour rated fire door, fitted with intumescent strips.

There needs to be a seperate escape route from the converted room. If it is a window, there is a maximum dstance (I seem to recall it is 1.6 meters) from the window sill to the edge of the room. You also should have a rope laddder type escape system available underneath this exit to be thrown outside in the event of an emergency.

Any electrical works now have to be caried out by a part P accredied engineer, and test certificates should be issued.

Materials and labour, ours now stands us at about £8000, but that includes installing air conditioninig in the loft and two main bedrooms and furniture / decoration. We have been told we have added about £15 - 20k onto the value of the house.

There is a wealth of information available on the web, and your local building control will probably be a lot more helpful than you might think.

Good Luck

pinkpong

clairehi wrote:

We had a loft conversion done a couple of years ago.

I did a search on the FMB website for builders who did loft conversions in our area, and had about 6 or 7 of them round to quote.

The one we chose only did loft conversions and nothing else. He had also done one for a friend of a friend - who recommended him.

He knew an architect and a structural engineer who drew the plans and did the calcs for £300 in total I think.

I am interested in loft con. where do you live? I live in Bristol I wander if anybody has any good recomendations. Many thanks

HappySad

I went from the FMB web sight also and I knew of no recommendations. The neighbour had a great job done and I had that company round to quote but decided not to use them because I then later found out about the FMB and the government trust mark. Good because the company went bust months later and my neighbour had problems getting the completion certificate (work was great they just did not complete the paper work because they were no longer in business).

The company I am using turns out to have the best customer service, local family business, fantastic references--> "you are lucky to have him do your loft and work on your house", hand the best working relationship with when I interviewed / chatted with them in detail about what I wanted.. and funny enough they turned out to be the cheapest. They are even helping me to find the cheapest & best quality places to get my wooden flooring, tiles etc. They also include 10years company guarentee... they have been in business for 20years.

What is important is that you check their referenes and actually go and see the work that they have done and what experience did his customers have before, during and after the build?

I did not choose this company because they were the cheapest I choose them because they weren't the most expensive and they would do a good quality work with great service and customer skills/relationship.

RICHARDGREENLAND

Hi, I'm a jobbing builder with over a dozen loft conversions to my name. Lots of good advice in the above. You probably won't need planning permission, unless the house is in a conservation area, you are significantly altering the appearance of the roof from the outside, or you are constructing an extra flat in the loft. But check anyway. Whether you get an architect or not is up to you, but in my opinion, unless it's a very big job or you enjoy spending money unnecessarily, I wouldn't bother. Specialist loft conversion companies MAY provide you with a premium service, or they may not. Certainly they will have a sharp suited 'surveyor' (read 'salesman') and shiny brochures to show you. Fine if you can afford to pay premium rates. Otherwise, I'd try and engage a small local builder by recommendation from your friends and neighbours. Why not get estimates from both types of firm?

Most loft conversions don't need an engineer either - another big expense you can save yourself. Especially as you MUST apply to building control at your district council for building regulations consent. It costs a few hundred pounds, but they will often do a lot of the calculations an engineer would do for you, too - the stuff you might otherwise be paying out for a structural engineer for! Pick his/her brains! Consider it a freebie! And, you have the reassurance of a knowledgable third party checking over the work and making sure it's all done properly. AND, you will NEED the certificate from them when you come to sell, or the buyers solicitors will tie you in all sorts of knots over it!

Re. the Federation of Master Builders, that's a bit of a misnomer, as anyone can join, subject to a few checks and payment of a fee. I've never bothered as I get enough work thru recommendation anyway. But I believe they do offer some sort of insurance if things go wrong, which might give you a bit of peace of mind.

Re RSJs, personally I've always managed to construct the floors without resorting to steels. The old fashioned rule of thumb for calculating joist sizes in a dwellinghouse is to take the span in feet, divide by two, add two, and that gives you the depth of your joists. Hence, if the span is 13 feet, you round it up to 14, divide by 2 = 7, add 2 = 9, therefore you need 9" x 2" joists, at the standard distance apart of 400mm between the centres. Most older style houses have a central spine wall, which is strong enough to rest the joists on. Masonry is ideal, but a first floor timber wall of 4" x2" timber will often suffice with a bit of reinforcement - so long as it sits DIRECTLY on the ground floor wall below and is not offset. With very large spans much bigger than this, you will need steels, tho.

There are too many regulations regarding loft conversions for me to list here, but a knowledgable builder should be familiar with most of them.

Your earlier correspondent is correct to say that radiators should have been fitted in the loft. However, it should not be 'freezing' in winter. This suggests that it is poorly insulated. I cannot emphasise enough the importance of good insulation, both to save you money long-term with ever increasing fuel prices, and because in these times of global warming it is the only responsible thing to do. There are very thin but very efficient products now which you can simply staple under the rafters, which saves time, but they are quite expensive. Otherwise use a gas inflated foam such as Xtratherm or Celotex, choose the maximum thickness you can get between the rafters whilst maintaining a 'breather' gap below the tiles/ slates (possibly batten underneath the rafters to make more space), and CRUCIALLY, make sure the lower edge of the insulation is flush or slightly proud of the rafters, so that it presses against the plasterboard below. This is essential to stop drafts simply blowing past your insulation and cooling the plasterboard! Foil backed plasterboard also helps keep you warm, and can avoid the need for a polythene vapour barrier.

Good luck!

RICHARDGREENLAND

Hi, I'm a jobbing builder with over a dozen loft conversions to my name. Lots of good advice in the above. You probably won't need planning permission, unless the house is in a conservation area, you are significantly altering the appearance of the roof from the outside, or you are constructing an extra flat in the loft. But check anyway. Whether you get an architect or not is up to you, but in my opinion, unless it's a very big job or you enjoy spending money unnecessarily, I wouldn't bother. Specialist loft conversion companies MAY provide you with a premium service, or they may not. Certainly they will have a sharp suited 'surveyor' (read 'salesman') and shiny brochures to show you. Fine if you can afford to pay premium rates. Otherwise, I'd try and engage a small local builder by recommendation from your friends and neighbours. Why not get estimates from both types of firm?

Most loft conversions don't need an engineer either - another big expense you can save yourself. Especially as you MUST apply to building control at your district council for building regulations consent. It costs a few hundred pounds, but they will often do a lot of the calculations an engineer would do for you, too - the stuff you might otherwise be paying out for a structural engineer for! Pick his/her brains! Consider it a freebie! And, you have the reassurance of a knowledgable third party checking over the work and making sure it's all done properly. AND, you will NEED the certificate from them when you come to sell, or the buyers solicitors will tie you in all sorts of knots over it!

Re. the Federation of Master Builders, that's a bit of a misnomer, as anyone can join, subject to a few checks and payment of a fee. I've never bothered as I get enough work thru recommendation anyway. But I believe they do offer some sort of insurance if things go wrong, which might give you a bit of peace of mind.

Re RSJs, personally I've always managed to construct the floors without resorting to steels. The old fashioned rule of thumb for calculating joist sizes in a dwellinghouse is to take the span in feet, divide by two, add two, and that gives you the depth of your joists. Hence, if the span is 13 feet, you round it up to 14, divide by 2 = 7, add 2 = 9, therefore you need 9" x 2" joists, at the standard distance apart of 400mm between the centres. Most older style houses have a central spine wall, which is strong enough to rest the joists on. Masonry is ideal, but a first floor timber wall of 4" x2" timber will often suffice with a bit of reinforcement - so long as it sits DIRECTLY on the ground floor wall below and is not offset. With very large spans much bigger than this, you will need steels, tho.

There are too many regulations regarding loft conversions for me to list here, but a knowledgable builder should be familiar with most of them.

Your earlier correspondent is correct to say that radiators should have been fitted in the loft. However, it should not be 'freezing' in winter. This suggests that it is poorly insulated. I cannot emphasise enough the importance of good insulation, both to save you money long-term with ever increasing fuel prices, and because in these times of global warming it is the only responsible thing to do. There are very thin but very efficient products now which you can simply staple under the rafters, which saves time, but they are quite expensive. Otherwise use a gas inflated foam such as Xtratherm or Celotex, choose the maximum thickness you can get between the rafters whilst maintaining a 'breather' gap below the tiles/ slates (possibly batten underneath the rafters to make more space), and CRUCIALLY, make sure the lower edge of the insulation is flush or slightly proud of the rafters, so that it presses against the plasterboard below. This is essential to stop drafts simply blowing past your insulation and cooling the plasterboard! Foil backed plasterboard also helps keep you warm, and can avoid the need for a polythene vapour barrier.

Good luck!

HappySad

Loft almost finished.. FANTASTIC. The company has exceeded my expectations. They are really good.

Not from the building trade but the Federation of Master builders MASTER BOND needs the company to be financially checked and also for some references to be taken up. If they have any disputes with their customers the the FMB can mediate and the loft company can has its membership removed it if is not acting correctly. I believe they also have to be trading for more than a year. The standard non-MASTER Bond membership is much easier to join but for the MASTER Bond you have to do all of the above stated.

The government trust mark is similar to the FMB masterbond. The company has to show that it is finaicially secure and that it does work to a certain standard.

Anyway I interviewed them for 2 hours (1 hour each time) and also checked 3 references. Which this company you spoke to the company owner who was also the project manager, buyer, sales man etc.

Like you say RichardGreenMan.. I did speak to a company that had a sales woman who could sell but know very little about what was being done. I found that I could not speak to the project manager until I paid my deposit. As I was getting a new boilder also I wanted to ask specific questions before making my decision and they were not able to do this.

the companys that came round with the builder come sells man were much better because you could ask more detailed questions about the work. If you are to spend thousands of pounds you need to make sure as much as possible that everything is in place.

donna-j_2

Ian.nb wrote:

.

You will need to change every door that opens onto the escape route (practically every door in the house) to a half hour rated fire door, fitted with intumescent strips.

This isn't the case if you're doing a bungalow conversion, only if you are doing a second floor (which the OP is I think).

Just thought I'd make that clear for anyone thinking of doing a bungalow. You do need the escape window though.

jodiamond

Hello all,

I am about to get my loft converted so my teenaged sons no longer have to share a room.

I have had 3 quotes so far, the one from a specialist company suggested they were going to gold plate the room!

I have now had drawings done by a structural surveyor and am once again auditioning builders. It seems I can pay anything from £30,000 up to £60,000 for the same work.

Some time ago I read that, for certain types of building work, some VAT can be reclaimed. Does anyone know anything about this?

I'm dreading the whole process, and not just because of the money.

All help, advice etc. gratefully recieved.

Jodi:eek:

RICHARDGREENLAND

THere is no VAT on newbuild, and only 5% VAT on converting a building to change the number of dwellings (converting to flats), tho it can be time consuming to claim back. Unless you are making a separate flat in your loft, I don't think you qualify.

Rich