Disclosure, of any asbestos content in an older buildings

LELAN

Fri 21 May 2008

When one contracts to have ANY work done on an older (1964) building with a specialist company (Solar Hot Water Installation) --- is there any onus on the private householder to disclose that there may possibly be some asbestos material contained in its original construction and/or modifications such as Artex on ceilings, even if the contractors work is not expected to or indeed unlikely to 'disrurb' any such asbestos material?
If there is some sort of 'duty to discLose' how exactly is an average householder expected to know about such things as asbestos was uses so extensively up until the 1970's?

fwor

The average householder has no expertise or training in the identification of hazardous building materials, and nobody is obliged to tell them about any hazardous materials in their property, so how could they know?

It would be the responsibility of the company doing any installation work to identify any potential hazards that might result from their work, although in this case it sounds as though the "hazard" resulted from accidental damage which they wouldn't have foreseen.

Incidentally, I believe that Artex and similar coatings are not considered hazardous, and do not under normal circumstances require specialist handling during removal, even though they contain asbestos. If someone is telling you otherwise, it might be worth investigating this further.

LELAN

fwor wrote: »

The average householder has no expertise or training in the identification of hazardous building materials, and nobody is obliged to tell them about any hazardous materials in their property, so how could they know?

It would be the responsibility of the company doing any installation work to identify any potential hazards that might result from their work, although in this case it sounds as though the "hazard" resulted from accidental damage which they wouldn't have foreseen.

Incidentally, I believe that Artex and similar coatings are not considered hazardous, and do not under normal circumstances require specialist handling during removal, even though they contain asbestos. If someone is telling you otherwise, it might be worth investigating this further.

Thanks for that. The ceiling Artex which was disturbed was accidental and happened because the company put the overflow ABOVE the water in feed, the ballvalve for some reason allowed water to come in and escape around its connection to the tank. This in turn disturbed the Artex making a potential hazard. I understand that the Artex material has to be disposed of safely.

Can the company (who admit it was their fault) either refuse to pay for reparation or to give me their Insurance Company's name?

LELAN

As a bit of an aside, a lot of fibreglass insulation dust has come down during a ceiling replacement done by the solar water companies people. Just how dangerous is this likely to be to us who have been living amongst it? --- :eek: This particular ceiling had thankfully tested 'negative' for any asbestos content. :eek:

withabix

The asbestos in Artex is not a significant hazard - this is blown up out of all proportion by contractors to try and fleece you of your cash. The same applies to asbestos cement sheets. Both of these types of materials have been deregulated so that you do not need a licensed asbestor contractor to deal with them.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/index.htm

The only REAL reason why Artex and AC sheets were banned was due to the total ban on using asbestos. Over 80% of all asbestos in the UK is in asbestos cement boards and artex.

Fibreglass insulation will just make you itch a bit, or give you a tickly throat.

Nothing to worry about. Have a shower if itchy and blow your nose a few times.

The hazard with fibreglass is the irritation.

LELAN

withabix wrote: »

The asbestos in Artex is not a significant hazard - this is blown up out of all proportion by contractors to try and fleece you of your cash. The same applies to asbestos cement sheets. Both of these types of materials have been deregulated so that you do not need a licensed asbestor contractor to deal with them.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/index.htm

The only REAL reason why Artex and AC sheets were banned was due to the total ban on using asbestos. Over 80% of all asbestos in the UK is in asbestos cement boards and artex.

Fibreglass insulation will just make you itch a bit, or give you a tickly throat.

Nothing to worry about. Have a shower if itchy and blow your nose a few times.

The hazard with fibreglass is the irritation.

Cheers for that. BUT I have to say both my wife and I seem to have contracted chest infections through being exposed to the dust containing a lot of fiberglass insulation particles. --- I, (retired and spending more time at home than wife) --- seem to have been more quickly affected and to a greater extent than her.
--- Tickly 'throat' - I should coco! :eek: -- I had been on anti-biotics and an inhaler for a week and was coughing so badly I was going blue. My wife a paramedic, (so well experienced in care) she took me to A & E where they gave a nebuliser treatment for half-hour and discharged me with a Steroid anti irritation inhaler. As stated --- I am retired and spend more time in our home than my wife. Well that is I did, we been hotel dwellers for 2 weeks now! :eek:

withabix

That will be the microbiological content of the dust then - mould spores, bacteria, viruses, dead skin, mouse poo, bird poo, flies etc...

Either that or you've got one of the rather jolly summer colds that are going round. I usually only get mild doses of these, but this one was proper man flu!!

You can't get an infection or anything that can be dealt with using antibiotics from contact with mineral wool or fibreglass insulation. All it can do is irritate you due to the fine hairy bits.

LELAN

withabix wrote: »

That will be the microbiological content of the dust then - mould spores, bacteria, viruses, dead skin, mouse poo, bird poo, flies etc...

Either that or you've got one of the rather jolly summer colds that are going round. I usually only get mild doses of these, but this one was proper man flu!!

You can't get an infection or anything that can be dealt with using antibiotics from contact with mineral wool or fibreglass insulation. All it can do is irritate you due to the fine hairy bits.

Plenty of the 'contents' you list after 45 odd years I guess.
I'm no expert, and never in my memory had any 'chest' infections before. Casualty Doctor suggested it was my breathing tubes 'irritated'. Said my chest xRay was pretty good. He said I might as well finish the course of anti-biotics as I then had only 1 day left to take. -- He decided on the the nebuliser which was putting in steroids and I have to use one inhaler to 'open' my 'breathing' tubes and the other to put the steroid treatment in. Defo' not flu ('man' or otherwise) -- I have never had either! and not a cold as no snotty nose. -- Not a very nice ilness at all so far. :sad:

LELAN

fwor wrote: »

The average householder has no expertise or training in the identification of hazardous building materials, and nobody is obliged to tell them about any hazardous materials in their property, so how could they know?

It would be the responsibility of the company doing any installation work to identify any potential hazards that might result from their work, although in this case it sounds as though the "hazard" resulted from accidental damage which they wouldn't have foreseen.

Incidentally, I believe that Artex and similar coatings are not considered hazardous, and do not under normal circumstances require specialist handling during removal, even though they contain asbestos. If someone is telling you otherwise, it might be worth investigating this further.

That is the way I was thinking but when I finally got a name and spoke to the Broker (Nick Aylett at Jelf Insurance) --- earlier this week he said I should have told the instller there was Asbestos in the building as they would have maybe been exposed to it. When I said they never asked he insisted I should still have told them. (They sent a 'surveyor' to plan the fitting of the system) I also said I thought as most buildings from 1964 would likely have had some asbestos in the building surely it was for the skilled installer to assess how likely this was then and ask. Seemed we were getting nowhere, so I asked for the actual Insurance Company for the Solar Installation company. Nick has currently refused this Data protection Act quoted to me. :eek:

withabix

LELAN wrote: »

That is the way I was thinking but when I finally got a name and spoke to the Broker (Nick Aylett at Jelf Insurance) --- earlier this week he said I should have told the instller there was Asbestos in the building as they would have maybe been exposed to it. When I said they never asked he insisted I should still have told them. (They sent a 'surveyor' to plan the fitting of the system) I also said I thought as most buildings from 1964 would likely have had some asbestos in the building surely it was for the skilled installer to assess how likely this was then and ask. Seemed we were getting nowhere, so I asked for the actual Insurance Company for the Solar Installation company. Nick has currently refused this Data protection Act quoted to me. :eek:

Owners of domestic properties have no obligations with regard to providing this type of information to contractors.

In terms of health and safety, contractors are required by law to be COMPETENT in the areas of work they participate in.

It is up to the contractor to determine if their is asbestos in a domestic property.

The insurance broker you have spoken to is clearly incompetent himself!!

LELAN

withabix wrote: »

Owners of domestic properties have no obligations with regard to providing this type of information to contractors.

In terms of health and safety, contractors are required by law to be COMPETENT in the areas of work they participate in.

It is up to the contractor to determine if their is asbestos in a domestic property.

The insurance broker you have spoken to is clearly incompetent himself!!

:beer:

Thank's a lot for that I sort of felt pretty confident that he might be confusing Commercial Premises with Domestic and also mixing in a bit of Plasterboard stuff to really gum things up. You have cheered me quite a lot. --- Appreciated. :T

I accept the business about Artex being not too bad asbestos wise, but think most major Ins. Co's would likely go the belt and braces 'specialist removal' route to protect against any possible future claims more or less as a matter of course. We chose to do this ourselves and must be prepared to defend that course of action. (£1570 inc VAT for hallway)-- Likely about twice the price of a 'normal' contractor doing it (assuming his disposal was done correctly). That cost we will have to maybe argue/agree on with whoever has to eventually take the rap.