Save the Economy? SCRAP the NHS!

Dithering_Dad

ShelleyC wrote: »

Sorry if it upsets those that rant about the level of pay but I expected I'd actually earn more money in the private sector as some friends working there already do :rotfl:

And we'd all be paying a fortune for the privilege. I'd be very interested to know how much Bendix's Father's insurance premium was for such a cast iron/comprehensive health insurance policy for a gentleman over the age of 65. I'm assuming it'll be beyond the means of most people of that age group.

I also assume that it didn't cover accidents, so had Bendix's Dad fallen down the stairs, he would be at the 'mercy' of the NHS and a burden to my tax £'s! I also believe that if he had a heart attack or other emergency condition, he would end up at an NHS hospital.

cowbutt

Jennifer_Jane wrote: »

I agree with Out, Vile Jelly (great name, OVJ!). In South Africa there is superb medical treatment if you are on a private medical scheme (again, most people who are working have this, with employer and employee contributing). There is also good treatment in State hospitals which is where you would have to queue for ages and pay a little bit for drugs.

Sounds a bit like the current mixed system in the UK so far...

You cannot use the State system if you have private insurance - as I know when a friend rushed me to hospital in the middle of the night, and I was turned away with a shot of pethidine for the pain.

Ouch! Presumably that was for something that wasn't life-threatening? Even so, I would hate to see NHS hospitals turning away anyone just because they had the means to be able to contribute to a private healthcare scheme if they've contributed to the NHS as well (via NI contributions and taxation).

On the other hand, it might discourage the practice of private hospitals performing profitable work (e.g. elective cosmetic surgery) but not doing a proper job of the profit-reducing aftercare (e.g. an infection caused by said elective cosmetic surgery!)

There's been talk in the UK of allowing those who pay for private health insurance to be able to get their NHS contributions refunded or use them to pay for part of their private insurance; is that how it works in SA?

Pennywise

Comparing the current UK private hospitals, private health insurance and private treatment generally is not really any use.

It is because we have the NHS that the private alternatives and insurance have evolved in the way they have.

If there was no NHS, or a severely reduced version of it, there'd be a much more vibrant private sector. There'd be more competition, so costs, quality and services would vary.

If, for example, BUPA's policy didn't cover Radiotherapy, then the other insurers would see that as an opening for them to gain more trade by including Radiotherapy in their competing products.

Same with costs of private consultations, operations, etc. Without the NHS, there'd be loads more different firms offering similar services, so the laws of supply and demand would kick in and prices would become more competitive as each competing business fought for the custom.

I'm not saying that such an open market would be the answer, but that is what would happen and why it is nonsense to compare the existing private alternatives against the NHS.

snarffie

bendix wrote: »

And therein lies the rub, snarff. It's just not acceptable for a grown human being to NOT have the nous or the smarts to plan for eventualities. It's no excuse to say they are hoodwinked - what happened to personal responsibility?

You are very clever if you've gone through life without being hoodwinked. Maybe you just weren't hoodwinked over the critically important things. Personal responsibility is another thing altogether.

This refrain is a constant on MSE, in the same way as it seems to be a constant in 2009 Britain. "It's not my fault .. . .I didn't know it when I signed it . . . .noone told me . . . . it's the company's fault ..." I mean, where does it stop? At what point in our recent history did the responsibility for our shortcomings and failures become someone else's concern? I'm genuinely baffled.

I agree that society needs to be more responsible. Some people are hopeless. Some are just unfortunate. To punish all members of society for the laziness of the few by getting rid of the NHS is just throwing out the baby with the bath water.

It's not just around health and health insurance, although I can't conceive of someone not having the gumption to ask basic questions. It's around debt, mortgages, pensions and god knows what.

I kinda get tired of hearing it.

Arranging mortgages and pensions would be very different to organising healthcare in the absence of an NHS. If you get your mortgage wrong, you end up financially disadvantaged as a consequence. If you mess up your healthcare, and you get ill, you don't get treatment. I know which is more important to me.

Nobody, should be denied access to healthcare because they can't afford it for any reason or made a poor decision as to which provider is best.

snarff

snarffie

Pennywise wrote: »

Comparing the current UK private hospitals, private health insurance and private treatment generally is not really any use.

It is because we have the NHS that the private alternatives and insurance have evolved in the way they have.

If there was no NHS, or a severely reduced version of it, there'd be a much more vibrant private sector. There'd be more competition, so costs, quality and services would vary.

If, for example, BUPA's policy didn't cover Radiotherapy, then the other insurers would see that as an opening for them to gain more trade by including Radiotherapy in their competing products.

Same with costs of private consultations, operations, etc. Without the NHS, there'd be loads more different firms offering similar services, so the laws of supply and demand would kick in and prices would become more competitive as each competing business fought for the custom.

I'm not saying that such an open market would be the answer, but that is what would happen and why it is nonsense to compare the existing private alternatives against the NHS.

You are talking about competition improving services. There is little doubt that it will. Private healthcare would get cheaper and it would likely provide an excellent service for those under the umbrella.

But you are damned if you get it wrong, or if you fall outside the criteria (just look at earlier posts relating to the system in the US). What if you have a family history of heart problems/cancer/genetic diseases? What if you lose your job and miss a payment? What if you miss something in your medical records that didn't seem important at the time? What if your age is becoming less attractive to the insurer? It is the people who fall out of the criteria who need it most.

I absolutely believe as night follows day that as soon as we lose the NHS, we will NEVER get it back, so be careful what you ask for.

Oldernotwiser

1984ReturnsForReal wrote: »

lets hope you dont ever need a 100k drug treatment program then.

In countries where this applies, people usually take out "top up" insurance at a reasonable price.

Oldernotwiser

bendix wrote: »

You're asking the wrong person, pal.

My father died of leukaemia two weeks ago, aged 67. His entire treatment costs were covered by a comprehensive health insurance policy. There was never any hint from them that costs would not be borne through the policy.

I'm sorry to hear about your father.

However, people with long standing chronic conditions like COPD will find they're excluded from private medical care after the initial tests and diagnosis. You get treatment when there's still a chance of a cure but when it comes to long term maintenance treatment, you're on your own!

chewmylegoff

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

In countries where this applies, people usually take out "top up" insurance at a reasonable price.

or the state covers 100% of the costs in cases of chronic illness, but only a percentage of the costs (e.g. in france, 70%) in non-chronic cases.

bendix

Dithering_Dad wrote: »

And we'd all be paying a fortune for the privilege. I'd be very interested to know how much Bendix's Father's insurance premium was for such a cast iron/comprehensive health insurance policy for a gentleman over the age of 65. I'm assuming it'll be beyond the means of most people of that age group.

I also assume that it didn't cover accidents, so had Bendix's Dad fallen down the stairs, he would be at the 'mercy' of the NHS and a burden to my tax £'s! I also believe that if he had a heart attack or other emergency condition, he would end up at an NHS hospital.

Most likely he would be at the mercy of the NHS, but in those circumstances I could live with it - they are accidents and unforeseen circumstances.

Despite my extreme original statement about gettign rid of the NHS, I know it's not practicable. It has to remain as a safety net in the same way the welfare system is mean to be a safety net.

Sadly, both have grown beyond their original remits, developed by well-meaning liberals who believe in their mission, but who totally ignore the real world and failed to realise that by making it MORE than a safety net they actually exacerbate social and health problems, not solve them.

Why? Because they eliminate the need for people to be responsible for themselves, their wealth and health and happiness.

ruggedtoast

Mr_Mumble wrote: »

If you want an affordable, efficient and world class health system then copying the world's best (according to WHO) is the way to go. Unfortunately you never hear about the Japanese health system. Why? It could be because the high capital expenditure, that leads to better health outcomes, means far less need for staff - the Japanese have fewer doctors and nurses per capita (despite an aging population) compared to most western health care systems.

After having lived in Japan I would rather be sick in virtually any other country, including a lot of developing ones.

Health technology is good in Japan. Health care is horrendous and is currently residing somewhere in 1747.

Bullying by doctors, hospitals that turn away foreigners in ambulances because they dont like them, patients left dying or in agony with no treatment, people getting the wrong operations, people being diagnosed with cancer but never told about it it in case they get upset. Doctors sexually abusing female patients (this happened to someone I knew).

You have got to be kidding me. If you want to go somewhere that makes you appreciate the nhs try Japan.

And btw its not free, you have to pay compulsory insurance you cant opt out of once youve started paying, its very expensive and only covers 70% of your treatment costs.