Save the Economy? SCRAP the NHS!

funguy

baileysbattlebus wrote: »

Does this mean that we go back to pre NHS days when only those who could afford it visited a doctor?

£5 or £10 for a doctors visit might not be a lot to you, but for some people it is - and may prevent them from seeking treatment.

The same for £30 - £40 for a housecall, it would certainly make some people think twice and rightly so, but for others it would be out of their reach - not everyone could afford it.

Are you suggesting access to the health service becomes means tested??

I acknowledge some people probably abuse the system, and the system abuses some of it's patients. The elderly being neglected and not being fed is one that springs to mind.

I agree that less should be spent on admin costs and highly paid execs and more should be spent on clinical care and research - surely there would be enough in savings to prevent charges being introduced for doctors surgery visits.


Then there is the Quality and Outcome Framework which means that GP's are asking older people to call into the surgery for regular health checks and often prescribing medication even though the patients are not ill and feel reasonably well. It will mean another box gets ticked on the QOF list.

QOF is one of the main sources of potential income for GP's.

This could go some way to explaining why people see GPs' waiting rooms full of elderly people - it probably isn't because they are ill, though obviously some will be, but quite a few will have been called in for a health check. That is certainly the case in our surgery.

Well £5 for your health is not a lot compared to a packet of cigarettes, a bottle of wine or a multipack of chocolates. Obviously there would need to be exceptions for the children etc....but there is going to be a charge sooner or later as the system is soo overstretched and abused!

Also very few countries in the world offer house calls....and none others that offer them for free. this is a luxury that an overstretched NHS cannot afford to continue. for every house call, 3 or 4 patients could be seen in the surgery instead.....Other countries do not have higher death rates due to lack of house calls.

lostinrates

funguy wrote: »

Also very few countries in the world offer house calls....and none others that offer them for free. .

HUH?

I had a house visit in Italy, in the small wee hours, from calling the Guardia Medica- like NHS direct a bit,. Not only was a doctor with me within 20 minutes, but he came accompanied by a driver: both for his safety and should the patient need physical assitance and to be taken to hospital.


FWIW though, I can see a small fee of £5 would not be an issue with the appropriate exclusions for visiting a GP/health provider. Bearing in mind that I imagine a very high percentage of those using the service are those who would be excluded (pensioners, children, those in reciept of benefits for health reasons) though.

The_Economist

dervish wrote: »

The vast majority of us pay more into the NHS than we will ever get out of it. It costs the country millions and billions of pounds.

SCRAP IT!

It is an outdated, anachronistic, white elephant.

We are the only country in the world with it! Why - becuase every other government realises that it costs TOO MUCH MONEY and that it WASTES money!

Knowing plenty of doctors, dentists etc I can tell you that all our taxes are being wasted on initiatives, ring binders of dtat, schemes etc. Too much middle management - not enough front line etc.

Solution is simple - abolish the NHS - the tax that people lose from their incomes could get them private health cover. If some of the lower classes prefer to smoke, drink or inject their incomes instead of paying for health care then damn them. They make their bed and they can lie in it,

In this ever deepening recession decent honest people who are hardworking or retired may jolly well ask "why should I subsidise the health of people?" They are right.

Its time as a country that individuals got responsibility of their own and didnt rely on the state to help them out!

The money saved on the NHS could go towards tax cuts and improving other infrastructure improvements such as widening motorways and a better and larger armed forces.

A few points i would like too pick you up on,
1) The vast majority of us pay more into the NHS than we will ever get out of it. It costs the country millions and billions of pounds.

This is the same as your state pension, do you also want to get rid of that!

2) Too much middle management - not enough front line etc.

This is a problem with any organization and i have to agree.

3)Solution is simple - abolish the NHS - the tax that people lose from their incomes could get them private health cover.

Isn't this the type of thing that has caused many Americans financial difficultys or even bankruptcy.

4)In this ever deepening recession decent honest people who are hardworking or retired may jolly well ask "why should I subsidise the health of people?" They are right.

What about those babies and children that need the NHS to get them well again.

5)The money saved on the NHS could go towards tax cuts and improving other infrastructure improvements such as widening motorways.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

funguy

lostinrates wrote: »

HUH?

I had a house visit in Italy, in the small wee hours, from calling the Guardia Medica- like NHS direct a bit,. Not only was a doctor with me within 20 minutes, but he came accompanied by a driver: both for his safety and should the patient need physical assitance and to be taken to hospital.


FWIW though, I can see a small fee of £5 would not be an issue with the appropriate exclusions for visiting a GP/health provider. Bearing in mind that I imagine a very high percentage of those using the service are those who would be excluded (pensioners, children, those in reciept of benefits for health reasons) though.

Thats different - thats like our out of hours GP service where there are triaged visits.

pfpf

dervish wrote: »

The vast majority of us pay more into the NHS than we will ever get out of it. It costs the country millions and billions of pounds.

SCRAP IT!

i have nothing but excellent experiences using the NHS.

KEEP IT!

It is an outdated, anachronistic, white elephant.

the whole country seems to be

We are the only country in the world with it! Why - becuase every other government realises that it costs TOO MUCH MONEY and that it WASTES money!

Knowing plenty of doctors, dentists etc I can tell you that all our taxes are being wasted on initiatives, ring binders of dtat, schemes etc. Too much middle management - not enough front line etc.

i agree with this, but no need to scrap it, just scrap the red tape and masses of management.

Solution is simple - abolish the NHS - the tax that people lose from their incomes could get them private health cover.

...that insurance companies will get out of paying out on when people actually need it, small print innit?

If some of the lower classes prefer to smoke, drink or inject their incomes instead of paying for health care then damn them. They make their bed and they can lie in it,

i agree with the sentiment.

In this ever deepening recession decent honest people who are hardworking or retired may jolly well ask "why should I subsidise the health of people?" They are right.

hard working seems to mean highest paid in your world, retired, well, i would say they would want the NHS surely?

Its time as a country that individuals got responsibility of their own and didnt rely on the state to help them out!

agreed.

The money saved on the NHS could go towards tax cuts and improving other infrastructure improvements such as widening motorways and a better and larger armed forces.

i dont think we need more/wider roads, we need less cars.

i dont believe in invading IRAQ for the oil.

blah blah blah...minimum letters complete.

baileysbattlebus

funguy wrote: »

Well without the money from QOF, there would be no GP surgeries as thats where GP, nurse, receptionist wages partly comes from as well as building costs! It was the government's plan to get people in for pointless health checks all the time.....all the doctors were against QOF!

I understood upto about 30% of GPs' practice income can come from QOF and that the object of QOF was to improve some of the chronic illnesses people have - diabetes, COPD, asthma, high blood pressure etc. I don't know them all.

I read that a lot of the QOF listed conditions had improved since it's inception.

Oldernotwiser

funguy wrote: »

Thats different - thats like our out of hours GP service where there are triaged visits.

In my experience, many European countries have home visits, covered in exactly the same way as any other visit to the doctor. From my membership of a health related international forum it seems to be mainly the Americans that don't. When they need urgent care they have to call out an ambulance and go to A&E, hardly a sensible use of resources!

Oldernotwiser

baileysbattlebus wrote: »

I understood upto about 30% of GPs' practice income can come from QOF and that the object of QOF was to improve some of the chronic illnesses people have - diabetes, COPD, asthma, high blood pressure etc. I don't know them all.

.

My husband has very severe COPD and was called into the surgery for a check up in the middle of the flu season. Now there's a really great idea, let's get all the people with lung conditions into a room with all the people seeing their doctors about having the flu!

Andy_L

funguy wrote: »

This is not such a difficult question to answer.

1) None of the top 20-25% of earners in the NHS (and thats 1000s of employees) are clinical staff....that puts into perspective where the vast majority of "new" money invested has gone - certainly not to doctors, nurses, clinical research staff etc! So for a start, remove all non clinically essential non-clinical staff!

To you have a source for that?
Seems a bit of an exaggeration as that would require every non-clinical support post ("Infrastructure support" as they're called) to be in the top 25% of earners: I don't see many HR admin types out-earning consultants

lostinrates

funguy wrote: »

Thats different - thats like our out of hours GP service where there are triaged visits.

Apologies: you ment routing home visits? My neighbour has been having routine home visits: she has suffered bowel cancer. There are also a high proportion of the very elderly in our very rural village: I think the cost to the NHS in car crashes could be raised if they were encouraged back on to the roads in their cars. Their is a bus service for those in that situation run locally: but it runs one pick up and two deliveries back a day IIRC.....hardly ideal for a very elderly person who's ill!