Solar Power - always a scam??

John_Pierpoint

"Solar Thermal"
"Solar Electric/Solar PV"
Seem to be the descriptions used these days to avoid confusion when talking about (roof top) panels.

Similarly global warming has become climate change and "geothermal tends to be reserved for "hot deep rocks" and under the garden has become GSHP (ground source heat pump).
(As against ASHP - Air...............)

simonm_3

I'm very pro solar, both PV and thermal. Okay there are lots of arguments about the cost effectiveness, Solar PV with FITs now seem to represent a practical investment, solar Thermal, pending RHI, perhaps not a cost effective solution when replacing gas, Oil is a different matter.

But, while the arguments might rage when looking at payback based on a good system installed by a responsible supplier, there are too many scammers still out there using the old double glazing techniques. Now that Everest have moved into Solar Thermal, wow they certainly show that they are the experts! Which? have just done an expos! of solar thermal sales techniques. There is a summary / press release here: http://www.solar-and-renewable-energy.co.uk/solar%20water%20heating/solarscams.asp which has links to the full article and a recording of a double glazing / Solar heating salesman.

Cardew

simonm wrote: »

I'm very pro solar, both PV and thermal. Okay there are lots of arguments about the cost effectiveness, Solar PV with FITs now seem to represent a practical investment, solar Thermal, pending RHI, perhaps not a cost effective solution when replacing gas, Oil is a different matter.

But, while the arguments might rage when looking at payback based on a good system installed by a responsible supplier, there are too many scammers still out there using the old double glazing techniques. Now that Everest have moved into Solar Thermal, wow they certainly show that they are the experts! Which? have just done an expos! of solar thermal sales techniques. There is a summary / press release here: http://www.solar-and-renewable-energy.co.uk/solar%20water%20heating/solarscams.asp which has links to the full article and a recording of a double glazing / Solar heating salesman.

Totally agree about the scamming salesmen.

Loads of 'Watchdog' type programmes have done the same.

However why is oil a different matter to gas?

The average solar thermal system produces around 1,000kWh* per year(nearly all in Summer) - and you have to pay for running the pump and electronics at daytime electricity rates.

The average price of gas is around 3p per kWh and today oil is about 4.5p per kWh.

You are required to pay around £3,000 top have solar termal fitted . So how does the economics of solar thermal ever add up?

* Government commissioned tests of 8 systems

Incidentally don't you run/work for Solar Kent - a firm selling solar thermal?

simonm_3

Oil on the grounds it is so much more expensive to use than gas

Solar Kent - have a look at the site: http//www.solarkent.co.uk no it doesn't sell solar energy systems, it does promote the concept, it also trys to make people aware of the scams.

Okay, you are critical of Solar Water heating on the grounds that it struggles to represent a real cost benefit. I've no problem with that.

However what I do have a problem with is where people who do decide to go for solar for whatever reason, that they aren't ripped off. £11,500 for a system that should cost £4,000 or similar is a rip-off.

Same for double glazing, the economics is patchy, just don't get ripped off!

Cardew

simonm wrote: »

Oil on the grounds it is so much more expensive to use than gas

Solar Kent - have a look at the site: http//www.solarkent.co.uk no it doesn't sell solar energy systems, it does promote the concept, it also trys to make people aware of the scams.

Okay, you are critical of Solar Water heating on the grounds that it struggles to represent a real cost benefit. I've no problem with that.

However what I do have a problem with is where people who do decide to go for solar for whatever reason, that they aren't ripped off. £11,500 for a system that should cost £4,000 or similar is a rip-off.

Same for double glazing, the economics is patchy, just don't get ripped off!

I note on your website the following quote:

In Kent, there are plenty of good installers of solar thermal, I have direct and positive experience of two - Dawsetway and Vietec.

Surely your solar thermal system was installed by Genersys PLC and you were an agent for that firm - with links etc?

No matter - we agree about rip off solar firms.

I can't see how anyone can justify solar thermal even if they use an immersion heater on daytime electricity rates of 10p/kWh - let alone Economy 7 or oil at about 4.5pkWh.

I do appreciate you are a solar enthusiast but please explain how you contend solar thermal is finacially viable.

simonm_3

In Kent, there are plenty of good installers of solar thermal, I have direct and positive experience of two - Dawsetway and Vietec.

I need to add Solaruk www.solaruk.net great little company, actually have guide prices on their website! I'll add them to the website.

As to selling on commission? Well, the only person I could have said to have "sold" to is a farmer friend up the road, no commission! Three years later he's adding more panels. No, he's not worked out how many therms, etc. just that on one set of holiday lets where he has the panels he pays nothing for water heating over the summer, on the other set, he pays sufficient that he's happy to install more panels.

In my case, again, I don't look at the theoretical calculations, just when I switch off my oil heating / hot water, when I switch on and how much less oil I use.

Whatever, we will disagree on the strict financial benefits - same could apply to water butts! I have two interests, one is that people don't pay over the odds for solar thermal systems, nor get a shoddy system. The other is that it is reducing my CO2 footprint.

With regard to paying over the odds, while we have the double glazing type sales techniques now, once RHI is introduced these dodgy sales techniques will get worse. If there is a way of getting across the message that if you are buying a solar water heating system and you get a salesman who starts talking about £11,500 (Everest) or £10,000 or £8,000 or in fact anything much more than £4,000 unless it is significantly non-standard / big then you are being ripped off!

Radarjet

I saw this article on a Taiwanese marketing newsletter.

Worldwide Solar Photovoltaic Market Reaches Record High2010/04/29

PV Industry Generates $38B in Revenue in 2009 and Forecast to Return to Growth in 2010 and Beyond
Worldwide solar photovoltaic (PV) installations reached a record high of 6.43 gigawatt (GW) in 2009—a 6% Y/Y growth, according to the latest Marketbuzz® 2010 Report from Solarbuzz®, an international solar energy market research and consulting company, and a division of The NPD Group. In addition, the company reported that the PV industry generated $38 billion in global revenues in 2009, while successfully raising more than $13.5 billion in equity and debt, up 8% on the prior year.
According to the Marketbuzz 2010 Report, European countries accounted for 4.75 GW, or 74% of world demand in 2009. The top three countries in Europe were Germany, Italy and the Czech Republic, which collectively accounted for 4.07 GW. All three countries experienced soaring demand with Italy becoming the second-largest market in the world. In contrast, Spanish demand in 2009 collapsed to just 4% of its prior-year level. The third-largest market in the world was the US, which grew 36% to 485 MW. Following closely behind was a rejuvenated Japan, ranked fourth and growing 109% Y/Y.
Worldwide solar cell production reached a consolidated figure of 9.34 GW in 2009, up from 6.85 GW a year earlier, with thin film production accounting for 18% of that total. China and Taiwan production continued to build share and now accounts for 49% of global cell production. Of total European demand, net cell imports accounted for 74%.
Figure 1: Major PV markets by country in 2009

Source: Solarbuzz Marketbuzz 2010 Report
The top seven polysilicon manufacturers had 114,500 tons per annum of capacity in 2009, up 92% Y/Y, while the top eight wafer manufacturers accounted for 32.9% of global wafer capacity in 2009.
Solar cell production exceeding market demand caused the weighted crystalline silicon module price average for 2009 to crash 38% from the prior-year level. This reduction in crystalline silicon prices also had the effect of eroding their price premium over thin film factory gate pricing.
Looking forward, the industry will return to high growth in 2010 and over the next five years. Even in the slowest growth scenario, the global market will be 2.5 times its current size by 2014. Using the fastest growth forecast, annual industry revenues would approach $100 billion by 2014.
"Industry performance in 2009 was remarkable in that it managed to more than fully replace the 2.3 GW demand gap caused by the change in policy in Spain," remarked Craig Stevens, President of Solarbuzz. "Looking forward, the industry will see a return to high growth, but in a low-margin environment. Our analysis demonstrates that a wide range of start-up markets will help offset a slowdown in German demand in the second half of 2010."

John_Pierpoint

Obviously solar PV is a new technology, but do we have any indication of the Mean Time To Failure ( serious overhaul) figures ?
I've heard of German figures for Ground Source Heat Pumps of 21.5 years, which compares very favourably with condensing gas boilers.

I notice that "Sanyo" is advertising that is Japan's leading manufacturer of PV.

More than 30 years of experience in solar technology has earned us a reputation for reliability among our customers.

1975

Amorphous silicon solar cell development launched.


1980

The world's first commercial production of amorphous silicon solar cells.


1992

Japan's first installation of an on-grid photovoltaic power generating system for residential use.


1994

Photovoltaic power generating system for residential use marketed.
HIT solar cells marketed.


1997


HIT solar cells marketed.


2001


SANYO Solar Ark, one of the world's largest photovoltaic power generating systems, completed at Gifu Plant.


2003


200W photovoltaic module with the world's highest conversion efficiency marketed.
Established the Nishikinohama plant as photovoltaic cell/module production base.


2005


Started mass production of HIT photovoltaic modules at the factory in Hungary.


2007

Cumulative production of HIT solar cells tops 100 million units.


====================================================================================


*1 HIT (Heterojunction with Intrinsic Thin-layer) hybrid solar cells are created by combining amorphous silicon and crystalline silicon and using an intrinsic semiconductor. *2 Highest in cell conversion efficiency of 19.7% and module efficiency of 17.0%. (as of April 1, 2003, at mass-production level)

Not sure I understand these new buzz words. Is this a case of "bull sh*t baffles brains" ? Perhaps someone can explain.

Cardew

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Obviously solar PV is a new technology, but do we have any indication of the Mean Time To Failure ( serious overhaul) figures ?

A question I have posed several times!

The companies make a great play of the panels themselves having a 10 year or 20 year guarantee.

However the the guarantees for the whole system are typically 2 years.

noncom_2

Two years may be typical, but in my enquiries around who to get in to give me a quote for Solar PV I've found a few companies who offer a 10-yr insurance backed guarantee on the whole installation. Now, as I haven't had quotes yet, I haven't seen the small print, but this seems more reasonable for such an investment, and obviously significantly better than you get for most goods (including very high cost goods like cars) and more in line with Building guarantees such as roofing etc. The Insured element of it also offers a measure of protection against suppliers going out of business for any reason.