The recession, benefits, the safety net, and the learning curve

bendix

It's threads like this - and Max's predicament - that make me despair of what my wonderful country has come to in the years I've been away.

The situation is so ridiculously unfair that it almost makes one weep, half through frustration and half through a lament for the depths we've fallen to.

This is a country now that not only tolerates and accepts mediocrity and vulgarity, but positively rewards it. Want to drop out of society, breed like rabbits and live a half decent life on state benefits - no problem sir and madam, after all, it's your right as an Englishman? Want to live a lifestyle way beyond your means, get yourselves into debt, and refuse to save and make provisions for your future - again, no problem. The others will take care of you.

Want to work hard, save, sacrifice the comforts of today for the security of tomorrow so that you won't be a burden on others - sure, you can do that if you want, but not until after we've taxed the life out of you, taken away your allowances and removed all incentives to save.

I'm sorry, but it's a f*****g disgrace.

Max_Headroom_3

Dithering_Dad wrote: »

As with MP's expenses, there are those who milk the system and those who don't. It's the same with benefits and we need to just weed these people out.

Sorry, meant to comment on this too.

This, I think, pretty much encapsulates my original point. Up until now most of us (myself included) have coasted along minding our own business, reasonably content with the status quo, no urge or wish to examine what's going on outside our sphere.

Now people like me are finding out what we're really owed once the proverbial hits the fan, and are deeply unhappy about it.

Suddenly MP expenses, professional benefit claimants etc are thrown into sharp relief and become a lot more relevant, and if nothing else comes of this recession I hope what it does do is concentrate the collective mind on injustices like these and sort them out.

Time will tell I guess.

matthewcb

Max_Headroom wrote: »

Meanwhile, Working Max, 25 years in employment and now out of work is hunting desperately for a job and receives £63 plus a bit toward council tax.

Not enough to even eat.

Fair? Forget fair, remotely reasonable even..?

Good luck finding something. I have a great deal of sympathy for you for what it's worth.

I also believed the way it was *supposed* to work was that the benefits system was there to catch you in case the worst happened, a bit like car insurance.

However it seems that it has become a viable alternative to working. As others have said, those that know how to 'work' the system get plenty, those that have worked and just apply for some help, without knowing how the system works, get next to nothing.

The trouble is, if a political party announced it was going to end the benefits culture, it would effectively be committing electoral suicide. Of course, it's really only the Tories that would consider this, but if they did, the old accusations of the 'uncaring Tory party' would be wheeled out again. An intelligent discussion would be virtually impossible.

So frankly, I don't see how it's ever going to end.

JayScottGreenspan

mitchaa wrote: »

I cant wait to hear your counter argument:D Im still in shock that you believe all that you get is £101 pw:rotfl:

All of your post is true (and the massive chunk of HB) provided you don't have any savings.

Your full-time scrounger will get your £22k tax free (equiv £30k gross) gifty. Your honest citizen who has put a bit by for hard times, who is not prepared to fraudulently hide their savings or income, they're the family that get the £100 a week to which oneeye1 refers.

You're right, it is an absolute shambles.

Max_Headroom_3

bendix wrote: »

Want to work hard, save, sacrifice the comforts of today for the security of tomorrow so that you won't be a burden on others - sure, you can do that if you want, but not until after we've taxed the life out of you, taken away your allowances and removed all incentives to save.

.

You forgot "And don't expect any meaningful help if circumstances beyond your control mean that you need it, because it won't be there. It's not for you".

bendix

Max_Headroom wrote: »

You forgot "And don't expect any meaningful help if circumstances beyond your control mean that you need it, because it won't be there. It's not for you".

I wish you luck pal. Sincerely.

I've only been back in the country for 4 months and I'm avowedly here for a 4-5 year stint with the sole aim of saving as much as I can before I semi-retire back to Asia. But, frankly, having seen the mess things are in in the UK, I have made sure my FO Fund is fully in place to get out as soon as I can, if my plans change.

By mess, I don't mean the economy or corrupt politicians with expense claims - that sort of thing is piffling. I mean the great socio-political mess we have let ourselves slide into in the last 20 years since I've been away, and of which the benefits culture is by far the biggest sympton.

It strikes me that the benefits system is a wonderful thing full of good intentions, but which failed in one key regard. It has fallen into disrepute because it failed to take into account the laziness and greed of a vast swarthe of the population who can't believe their good luck in having such a lifestyle as an option to them. And in the process it has turned such lifestyle's into a person's 'birthright.'

Tragic.

johnny_storm

JayScottGreenspan wrote: »

Your full-time scrounger will get your £22k tax free (equiv £30k gross) gifty. Your honest citizen who has put a bit by for hard times, who is not prepared to fraudulently hide their savings or income, they're the family that get the £100k a week to which oneeye1 refers.
QUOTE]

Its funny how its fraud one way, but if you pay in to the "insurance" and have savings you get nothing, thats not considered fraud is it?

Can you imagine car insurance not paying out because you earned too much lol

SunnySusie

I think far fewer people "chose" this life style than many think. But what is the answer? The more generous the benefits are - the less incentive there is to continue to work. If the "safety net" is too good heck why don't we all take a month off - after all we "earnt it" by paying our taxes. And what about other countries with high taxes and high benefits, I don't think those places are really that better. Put taxes up and we'd all moan. Or countries where there is no welfare - lets fence off the poor in slums... surely that is worse still?

I don't know what the answer is, but the UK isn't all THAT bad.

Max_Headroom wrote: »

Not enough to even eat.

I often have this argument whilst watching "Secret Millionaire". You know the bit where millionaire gets their £60 to live on for the week and my partner always goes "that's loads" and I stick up for those living on that and try to say it isn't that much.

Perhaps you can settle that argument? Where does that money go? I eat off about £30 a week. Not because I have to, my disposable income (whilst I have my job!) is thankfully comfortable, but because I have simple tastes.

And that's without really trying, so I still have some Gu as a treat, a bottle of wine, sometimes bacon, maybe even a steak some weeks!

I can do a big bowl of pasta, fresh veg, etc which can be split up frozen and fill me for 5 odd portions for a few pounds. Fresh fruit and veg from the market, big supermarket bags of pasta and rice, it doesn't have to cost that much. Plenty of threads on this very forum for eating GOOD meals for less money. Good healthy food is actually cheaper than processed rubbish.

FWIW The best argument I come up with is the whole "if my roof falls off" one that you mentioned too .

Best of luck with the job hunting.

JayScottGreenspan

matthewcb wrote: »

The trouble is, if a political party announced it was going to end the benefits culture, it would effectively be committing electoral suicide. Of course, it's really only the Tories that would consider this, but if they did, the old accusations of the 'uncaring Tory party' would be wheeled out again. An intelligent discussion would be virtually impossible.

So frankly, I don't see how it's ever going to end.

You're probably right. Also, unless this is dealt with, the problem is only going to get worse.

However, it's a very difficult problem, because the system has two very different types of customer:
a) the single mum who is a victim of circumstance, who takes good care of her kids, who doesn't want to need help, but does.
b) the person who intentionally gets pregnant as a passport to welfare bounty, whose kids run riot, who has no interest in raising them well. Typically chain smokes and doesn't clean up after the pitbull, leaving the kids to play amongst the mess. Will have more when the current batch get too old for benefits purposes.

How do you take care of the (a)s whilst discouraging the (b)s. I'm not sure there's a perfect answer, but a good start would be to make sure a family with one person working 40 hours a week on minimum wage has at least twice the effective net income (including housing benefit) as the equivalent workless family.

Raising the minimum wage would help, but there probably is scope for cutting benefits. £22k net, equivalent to £30k gross as per mitchaa's post, is too much reward for no work. Lower housing benefit, more sharing of rooms, lower disposable income - it's the only sane option IMO.

Maybe increased family benefits linked to both parents' NI contributions would help the (a)s too.

Graham_Devon

mitchaa wrote: »

Now i have no idea where you live but as an example oneyee1, Aberdeen LHA for 3bed home = £173.08pw

http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/Benefits/ci_ben/ben_lha_jan2009.asp

£173.08 x 52 = £9,000pa

Add that onto the £13,300 i calculated earlier and there is a benefit bill of £22,300. (Not inc free dental, prescriptions, milk tokens, school dinners etc etc)

Now to earn £22,300 AFTER TAX you would be required to secure a job paying £30k to do so. That is a £30k job just to match the life of a couple on JSA.

No wonder the country is in the mess it is in. I suspect even if the above family were offered a £35k pa job they would probably refuse it and want to stay on benefits. (Taking into account work related costs, travelling expenses etc etc)

Its a shambles.

I like you much better when your talking like this :D