The recession, benefits, the safety net, and the learning curve

Oldernotwiser

Max_Headroom wrote: »

As for the rest, it's not rocket science to simply action the claim from the date given, just requires the entry of a different number on their computer.

You're forgetting the fact that one of the conditions for claiming JSAis that you're available and actively seeking work. This is a bit difficult to prove retrospectively.

Max_Headroom_3

lynzpower wrote: »

This is absolutely my experience too.

I have found myself out of work now and again. When I left Uni, I too tried to find temp work and eventually got it before the date of signing on again, and recieved 4 quid for about 3 weeks,I could not understand how theyd done it, but it seems from what Ive read on here - IN CASE YOU HAVENT SEEN THIS! - Student loan is classed as income. So if one of you in a couplerecieves a student LOAN ( of what 4k a year?) you both have to live on it in some cases, as the spouse "earns" too much for contribution based.

Indeed my OH who temps in london at 7.40 an hour, was supposed to support himself, me and my mortgage and service charge on that. All the food all the bills, any debt payments we had. It was totally impossible.

The job centre is never going to be able to work, run by a government like this, to respond after the bubble they helped to create and planning properly for it to go pop.

It takes 2 year ( I think?)to actually train as a careers advisor. There are clealry a lot of skills and knowledges needed to be able to impart those skills. Do job centres actually have proper careers advisors? Or do they just have sales consultants from the likes of Reed. Interestingly the Reed Single Mothers project "we guarantee all single parents an interview for a job" it screams out on the window, seemed to be closed down when I drove past the other day.

I have never had any advice. When I went again to try and sign on after the priod of illness above they ask dumb-as-hell questions. "can you tell me three things you have done this week to find work?" Im not blaming the staff, but theres an organ grinder somewhere thats come up with this script they have to say, to patronise all but the most pathalogically lazy with the response "where shall i start". One girl looked at me strangely when I said I would "look for jobs in community care magazine"- but then again you cant expect anyone behind the counter any more than basic benefits and to try and suss who is swinging the lead, otherwise its just the processing of the desperate.

I have been to a couple of inner city Jobcentres in London and they are really quite intimidating places at times, so for those who may lack cofidence after 20 years i nthe same job, want to feel supported and that environment, doesnt make people feel that way. And I think the public feels it SHOULD, and we pay for this in the good times, so why is my brother/ freind/ mum getting treated like an idiot down the Jobcentre in te bad times? Its not his fault the cxompany went bust..." etc

I worked as a social worker, and its totally my experience that the DWP lets so many people down, it is heartbreaking to see this day after day. No, you cant be allowed £5 food voucher to feed yourself after the DWP c**up your claim. NO weve stopped your payment as you dind t reply to a last letter but thats cos we sent it to a hostel, we know you get moved about , and you wrote && told us you left, but cos of that no cash for 3 weeks" NO, you have earned too much NO you have a property in your name in another country that you could live in, however you dont even have the bus fare to get to the airport, let alone the means to get overseas NO, we misread a lame photocopy of your details and put your DOB in wrong so your paymetns have been stopped for inconsistency NO, you cant have any money to live on this week.

Max, if you can be grateful for something right now, be grateful you have your faculties and you totally know wht you are arguing for, you can fill those forms in properly, and if you can fill in an application form properly, and in time you WILL be offered another job. You will always have your own home, and to an extent you are free of so many of the vageries of the DWP.


Rant over

Excellent post LP, thank you.

I'm very grateful for my situation and I'm certainly not canvassing sympathy, I genuinely don't think I've earned any. I'd say most people in my current position are probably a lot worse off.

And as you rightly say, I have my own home and am massively massively grateful for that (although I wouldn't have it if Dopester had his way! )

Max_Headroom_3

abaxas wrote: »

What is more 'crazy' is that you expect to be helped. Why not save for a rainy day? Lots of other countries manage without our benefits systems and people survive.

Oops, I forgot it's old fashioned to be sensible and forward looking.

Clearly there speaks someone who's never had to really struggle to survive. If you had, you wouldn't say something so crass.

I've been in a situation the long time ago where, due to a combination of circumstance and low income I've struggled to survive. I clearly recall my oh so supportive (:rolleyes:) parents saying to me "oh well of course when we were young we have to save for things you know".

Not a flipping clue...

Max_Headroom_3

mvengemvenge wrote: »

Hmmm...lot to respond to there!

I've worked for JCP for 20 years. Before that I was unemployed for 9 years. Before that I worked in private industry. So, I think it's fair to say I've got a rounded view of the issues on this thread.

Please think of job centre advisers as someone who signposts you on to people who give you more tailored advice/training. They are not career advisers, and never claim to be. Their training is mostly in benefits, processes, ticking boxes for the government. There are bad apples, staff who give poor service, it can't be denied.

However, most people I know go into the job thinking they are going to help people, move them on. When you get that help thrown back in your face again and again and again, it naturally starts to colour your view of claimants in general. This is just human nature. You literally wouldn't believe some of the incidents that go on in job centres. Some dangerous, some ridiculous, I've often said if we wrote a sit-com about it, it would seem fantastical.

Anyway, that's my (mini) rant over. All I'm trying to say is that nearly all JCP staff try their best for people, but often situations deteriorate because either systems don't produce results quickly enough or you're telling people something they don't want to hear. Please bear in mind that the benefit rules, the computer systems and the procedures to operate it all are not the fault of the front-line staff, they are just the tools they have to work with.

On the subject of JCP staff, another eye-opener I've had in this steep benefits learning curve is my experience of them.

And I've been (so far) constantly amazed at how quickly, efficiently and politely I've been treated.

Maybe I've been lucky but everyone on the "front line" has been absolutely first class so far, nothing but praise for them in what must be a very difficult and demanding job at the moment (indeed they're even having to work weekends to process claimants, my first "sitting" was on a Saturday!)

Oldernotwiser

Max_Headroom wrote: »

I've been in a situation the long time ago where, due to a combination of circumstance and low income I've struggled to survive. I clearly recall my oh so supportive (:rolleyes:) parents saying to me "oh well of course when we were young we have to save for things you know".

Not a flipping clue...

I don't know your parents (or their situation) but I do have the sense to know how much harder a life mine had than anybody has these days!

Max_Headroom_3

I can assure you mine didn't. Father went to uni, got a good job and worked his way up the career ladder.

Mother stayed at home and was the traditional "little woman".

Never a day of financial hardship in their lives.

Of course that doesn't stop them being experts and comparing their cozy little set up with people who are genuinely struggling and criticising them. :rolleyes:

dopester

Max_Headroom wrote: »

And as you rightly say, I have my own home and am massively massively grateful for that (although I wouldn't have it if Dopester had his way! )

Correction Max, and I'm sorry you've pulled me back in, because you and others seem to view this as uncaring, when I see it as the reverse.

If I had my way, you'd STR. If your home is approximately valued at £150K... maybe STR at around £125K, get a job, even a minimum wage job, find some very cheap lodgings, and ride out this recession. If no job, then other measures to cut back all costs, maybe including camping, or camper-van.

After the depths of recession reached, then buy your home back, or a very similar one, for sub-£40K or £50K. Then have a nice home again + the equivalent of another house purchase in outright savings to support yourself comfortably in your Autumn years.

However I know the risk involved (STR to cash).. and understand that few expect such losses in value, whilst others expect inflation to "come to the rescue" - which would actually make things a lot worse. If you aren't displined then of course you can easy burn through money. £10K to move somewhere again? Also deflation hitting costs of all kinds of services.

Max_Headroom wrote: »

Just for the record, my home is worth a fair bit less than £180K. in theory I could downsize you're right, but how much would that cost in terms of selling and then buying costs, just to live somewhere I don't like, and I've still got no income, just a dwindling pile of money (which, incidentally, will instantly kill JSA payments in the process).

There are two outcomes of that situation. Either I burn through the money and end up right back where I am now, but in a flat not a house, which is of no help.

Or I get a job, wayhay! Oh but !!!!!!, I'm now living in a flat, I've spent £10K moving, so that's gone, I've got to spend another £10K trying to move again to get back to where I was, and I've spent £10K of the equity in the meantime. So a year on and I'm back to square one, but with £30K blown, all borrowed (as I'd have to borrow that to get back to where I started).

Not a great idea either way around.

However, without parroting, you've already given me your response. Yes it would kill your JSA eligibility (some of us are scraping by without JSA too because we have savings).

Does it really matter if your temporary accomodation is not as nice as your own home and you "don't like it." Think of the end game. Where we are living isn't ideal but focussed on the target. The point is to win, everything must bend to that truth.

Also, on this thread you suggested I want home-owners kicked out of their homes, so values would drop. Yes in many ways I don't see how it can be justified raising JSA to help home-owners. If I owned a home and my income had dropped, with future prospects down... I'd strongly consider selling, before more people in the same situation did, and kept lowering their asking prices to find a buyer - thus lowering market value of my own home further.

i8change

Originally Posted by ceridwen
b. How do you know that people manage to survive without a benefit system if need be? Do you have the statistics/time spent in living in these countries/etc to be able to prove that assertion?

Benefits are temporary in some countries, this is from a Spanish forum (friends over there have said the same) You rely on family after that!:-

There isn`t any child tax credits, childcare costs or low earners help.
Unemployment payments is dependant on the amount and time you`ve contributed into Seguridad Social.
For example a friend recently became unemployed after 7 yrs working in Spain, he got 80% of his salary for 6 months, then reduced to 60% for 3 months, after that it ends.
Emergency payments can be made if you become homeless, there are also payments for having disabled children or immediate family.
The benefit system though will only help you for a short time and is granted under extreme situations.
Spain can refuse any EU citizen from entering Spain for longer than 90 days if you cannot support yourself, either with Pension, work or savings.
You can read the full list here, Seguridad Social only pay to people who have contributed, you cannot arrive in Spain and simply claim support

http://www.seg-social.es/Internet_6/Trabajadores/PrestacionesPension10935/index.htm
.

seven-day-weekend

Here in Spain,unemployed people have to do so many hours community work otherwise they lose their entitlement.

PasturesNew

dopester wrote: »

... get a job, even a minimum wage job
...If no job, then other measures to cut back all costs, maybe including camping, or camper-van.

Two flaws:
1] If he could get a job, any job, then he'd have more than £60/week to live on and there wouldn't be any hardship
2] Camping/camper van and you go completely off the radar, no address - without an address life just gets harder. Where are your bank statements to go to? Job applications returns?

dopester wrote: »

After the depths of recession reached, then buy your home back, or a very similar one, for sub-£40K or £50K. Then have a nice home again + the equivalent of another house purchase in outright savings to support yourself comfortably in your Autumn years.

He's probably put a lot of time/effort/money into getting his house just how he likes it. Any other one just wouldn't be the same and he'd have to spend a lot more time/effort/money knocking it about a little bit.

Overall, to STR would be the wrong thing to do.

dopester wrote: »

Does it really matter if your temporary accomodation is not as nice as your own home and you "don't like it." Think of the end game. Where we are living isn't ideal but focussed on the target. The point is to win, everything must bend to that truth.

Yes it does matter if you've just invested 10-15-20 years of your entire being and soul into building yourself a nice little house you love.

dopester wrote: »

Also, on this thread you suggested I want home-owners kicked out of their homes, so values would drop. Yes in many ways I don't see how it can be justified raising JSA to help home-owners. If I owned a home and my income had dropped, with future prospects down... I'd strongly consider selling, before more people in the same situation did, and kept lowering their asking prices to find a buyer - thus lowering market value of my own home further.

It wasn't about helping home owners, per se, it was about how little a single person, who is a home owner, with no children, gets after a lifetime of contributing.