The recession, benefits, the safety net, and the learning curve

lynzpower

dopester wrote: »

Whatever Max. The implication was there, with reform of JSA for long term claimants, now you are a claimant yourself. Free-up lots of extra money for the middle-classes who've paid in.

Why didn't it bother you in the past? Why were you not calling for benefit reform during all the HPI booming years?

My conscience is clear. You think it is a gamble - where I am taking that exact gamble by not buying - then risking a position where I'd be reliant on benefits JSA, because I believe values have a long way to fall. Good luck with it though.

For crying out loud Dopester listen to yourself! Christ! Have you always had total understanding of every situation whether you have been in it or not?

How was max to know how hard it is, if hed never had to do it

Dopester come on, you really are being totally unreasonable here.

dopester

a) Max has seen his house double in value, then double again. He claims not to have benefited from HPI, as it is just a home. Fine. He disputes that the extra value has any real value to him. Of course I understand the risks of doing STRing, and going to cash..

b) Probably a million people or more will be joining him on JSA during the next 12 months - although I hope he soon lands a job, and one worthy of a £500 suit. If not, then a job he enjoys and that beats what JSA pays.

Speaking to Newsnight he said 100,000 people will lose their job each month "at least until the end of the year". - 21st May 2009

c) As it is my own position (not owning a home but having savings), what harm is there in asking someone to consider STR-ing, in advance of a lot more people struggling, and house values falling significantly, as those who can accept ever lower prices.

Not everyone agrees they have much further to fall of course. Fine. To knock me down and laugh at it, for what is in my view reasonable, is up to you. Unless you think it is deluded that his home may lose a further 30%+ or more in value, or the area might lack employment opportunities, and the economy remains rocky for a long time to come. I may be wrong - but no harm putting it forward.

d) Welfare state reform. I long wanted it. However many long-term benefit claimants have gotten so used to the system. Some BTLers there to cater for it. Max obviously now feels it is an unfair situation, having paid in to the system but only now drawing on it, with others having much provided for them for free. I don't think his outlook is that pure when many claimants don't own their own homes, nor homes which have risen in 400% value. If he's prepared for his own house to lose 50% value, then fair enough.

What kind of reform? There are many people who are highly qualified and skilled who are losing their jobs, and can't get jobs back in their old fields of employment. Some are struggling to get jobs in lower paid alternative employment. Forcing long-term claimants to work-for-welfare maybe? Street-cleaning and the like? Thoroughly check invalidity benefits for non-ill slackers.

Surely not bring in measures to try and push them off benefits - provided long term payers in are looked after? These people have lives too - I'd bet some are as nice as Max himself - and there are fewer jobs available anyway for good candidates... although by itself maybe such harsh medicine can bring about changes for the good, and bring about economic growth after welfare is reformed. Forced change. Can we expect JSA pay to remain at these levels?

treliac

A bit of human kindness wouldn't go amiss, would it dopester?

mewbie_2

There's a difference between general pontificating and criticising within this forum, and real hard luck befalling any of its members - bulls, bears or in betweenies. Even if you don't agree sometimes it's better just to say "tough luck" or whatever, and move on.

Unless it's Pickles of course.

bluey890

dopester wrote: »

. Can we expect JSA pay to remain at these levels?

Is JSA that high? I thought it was all the other expenses that were too high (paying for people to live in temporary B&Bs, Hotels or (sometimes) large houses).

dopester

treliac wrote: »

A bit of human kindness wouldn't go amiss, would it dopester?

treliac, I feel bad about it, because this is me being kind.

It isn't like I don't know the doubts and fears when you lose your job. The shock in change of living standards, and worry about prospects. Seen many people going through it, and it isn't like I've ever been blinging about with a loadamoney attitude to make people less unfortunate feel bad. Not like that at all, and scrimped and saved, so know hard times just as keenly as others.

Right. For all those who think STR is not a good idea for Max now, as can rely on JSA for the moment, and even then just has to get a minimum wage job to tide him over in the event he doesn't land his preferred role, because at least he doesn't have a mortgage - I hope you are right, for Max's sake, and for people like him. I'll take a 3 month break because it seems like I'm against Max's best interests.

lynzpower

dopester wrote: »

treliac, I feel bad about it, because this is me being kind.

It isn't like I don't know the doubts and fears when you lose your job. The shock in change of living standards, and worry about prospects. Seen many people going through it, and it isn't like I've ever been blinging about with a loadamoney attitude to make people less unfortunate feel bad. Not like that at all, and scrimped and saved, so know hard times just as keenly as others.

Right. For all those who think STR is not a good idea for Max now, as can rely on JSA for the moment, and even then just has to get a minimum wage job to tide him over in the event he doesn't land his preferred role, because at least he doesn't have a mortgage - I hope you are right, for Max's sake, and for people like him. I'll take a 3 month break because it seems like I'm against Max's best interests.

im really interested, who do you think Max would sell his property to?

treliac

dopester, You're very highly regarded on the board. You have a lot of interesting and informed things to say and I enjoy reading your point of view.

I also understand where you're coming from in wanting house prices to come down. You are waiting for the chance to buy and that has been denied to you and many more in recent years. As I've said before, I want the same as too many have been totally priced out of the market and I've got a couple of kids who'll probably want a chance in the market eventually.

However, life's not cut and dried and don't most of us have to struggle in some way or other as we battle through life? I started off in the forums because I was mis-sold a pension mortgage, which has severely damaged family finances over the years.

I feel a bit upset reading the threads where the generations debate/argue over which has had it worst. I don't think it can be quantified and, clearly, how we specifically feel about what happens to us has an individual effect too.

Guess what I'm trying to say is can we all try to be a little less rigid in our thinking, especially when someone else is suffering real setback and can we try to be understanding of each other's point of view. It is great to debate as there's nearly always a number of opinions and takes on any situation, none being intrinsically right and none intrinsically wrong.

Hope you'll stick around. I'm sure things'll look better as you see your goal getting nearer. And I don't think we can wait 3 months to hear from you again either. :cheesy:

Max_Headroom_3

Dopester, can I just ask you one question? How old are you? I'm sure it came up before and you did mention it but I can't remember what you said.

dopester

treliac wrote: »

I feel a bit upset reading the threads where the generations debate/argue over which has had it worst. I don't think it can be quantified and, clearly, how we specifically feel about what happens to us has an individual effect too.

Guess what I'm trying to say is can we all try to be a little less rigid in our thinking, especially when someone else is suffering real setback and can we try to be understanding of each other's point of view.

You've got a lot of balanced wisdom about you treliac. Even when you might have been disillusioned and tougher after overcoming some complicated financial circumstances of your own in the past. I share the same hopes for you being able to buy affordable property, and future generations.

Mewbie, even when I've crossed swords with mitchaa, chucky, DD and Conrad, and many others, on the issues, never do I wish them real hard-times or ill-will. (ISTL though a special case and look forward to the day he can see beyond his stats and charts).

lynzpower - to a buyer, as they still exist and even paying more this month for property than last month according to NW (but it no longer matters.)

I'm sorry Max if you think I was not being sympathetic to your situation. It might not have been the best thread to air my thoughts on - right or wrong. Wish you good fortune in securing employment that you enjoy in the near future.