Paypal reversed payment on an item I sold on ebay

in_dulge

Hi All,

This is my first post, please be kind and supportive. I have been a victim of a fraud, and would need all the help and advise I could get!

I recently sold a TV on ebay with the pick-up option to the winning buyer. The item was bought through 'Buy It Now', and the buyer promptly made payment through PayPal. We communicated through Ebay system and arranged for a pick-up after I received confirmation from PayPal about payments received. This buyer had 100% feedback on Ebay.
After the buyer had picked-up the item, I gave orders to PayPal for funds withdrawal to my bank account. Next day, I received notification from PayPal that they needed some extra documents from me for verification of my account, and until then they would limit my account access and hold the payment received. When I called them, I was told that it was just a random check to rule out any money laundering or other such activity, and was also assured that my payment was safe with them and that there was no problem from the buyer's end. After five days and at least 10 different documents and 3 phone calls to PayPal later, I finally received an email from PayPal that my account had been cleared. But my payment was still on 'Hold'. So, I called PayPal again today morning and spoke to an executive who assured me that my payment would be 'released'in the next 10 mins. When I checked my account after half an hour, I was shocked to see that the payment had been 'reversed' instead of being 'released'! I called PayPal again and this time I was told that apparently there was a fraud at the buyer's end - 'unauthorised use of ebay account'. After providing all the information from my end, including a plain paper signed acknowledgement of receipt of goods from the buyer!

I did not have PayPal Seller Protection. But I would like to know that how can a seller be penalised for fraud commited at the buyer's end. And also, shouldn't it be the card company who should compensate for account holder's/buyer's card being misused?

The amount in question is £220 and I am really disappointed at the way Ebay/PayPal have handled the case. What are my options, what can I do now to get my money? On speaking to Ebay, they agreed that it was none of my fault, but they could still not help me as even they had received info that the member account was used unauthorised, five days after the auction ended! Now, they have even removed my original listing, so I can't even approach Ebay resolution centre!

Please excuse this long mail. I really need help!

soolin

I'm sorry but I am going to have to say it as it is, you have no way of recovering this money, you have fallen for a very well known scam and you have no seller protection with paypal as you have not complied with their rules.

Unfortunately naive or new sellers on ebay are often targetted by scammers who gamble that these sellers have not understood how paypal works, so they get their goods and they get their money back, you would have been picked on deliberately.

If you had understood how paypal worked and had protected yoruself this could not have happened. Paypal would have defended you against a claim for unauthorised use the moment you proved delivery to the buyer to the address supplied by paypal using an online confirmation service. By allowing yourself to be talked into allowing collection the buyer knew you had no way of tracing him again nor could you stop his chargeback via paypal.

If you have any info at all on the person that collected the item you can try small claims for redress, but without a valid street address even this is not going to be possible.

Sorry, but without proof of delivery you have no seller protection at all on paypal.

StaffsSW

in_dulge wrote: »

This buyer had 100% feedback on Ebay.

All buyers have 100% feedback. Some people even think that it means something important!

I was shocked to see that the payment had been 'reversed' instead of being 'released'! I called PayPal again and this time I was told that apparently there was a fraud at the buyer's end - 'unauthorised use of ebay account'.

This is becoming more and more common, despite the head of ebay Trust and Safety effectively dismissing any complaints about it when Paypal had to be offered on all listings.








(Both taken from the eBay PS Board)

http://forums.ebay.co.uk/thread.jspa?threadID=1100176093&start=36 & http://forums.ebay.co.uk/thread.jspa?messageID=1205754977&start=12


I'll also add, for the record, that my personal opinion of Richard Ambrose that he is an obnoxious rooster, with no interpersonal skills, tact nor diplomacy, and lacks the acumen or ability to run a bath, let alone an eBay department....

Awec

I like how he says that it won't be prioritised.

Aye, cause seller protection isn't important or anything.:rolleyes:

soolin

Awec wrote: »

I like how he says that it won't be prioritised.

Aye, cause seller protection isn't important or anything.:rolleyes:

Seller protection though is important, but as sellers we have to do our bit to stay safe as well.

We regulars tend to sit on here and assume that people who use services know how they work, if asked I would have said that virtually all sellers knew that paypal required a signature on delivery to fight a chargeback. Yet time after time we get threads where sellers have handed over high end goods to a complete stranger on the basis it is safe. I hate to think of the scammers getting away with this, but I cannot see what on earth anyone can do at the moment to stop sellers falling for this scam.

We already have all the details of the paypal protection on the useful tips sticky thread, which shows really that there is no point in having it there. It used to be in the ebay tutorial for new sellers, but I assume no one bothers to do that, how else can the message get 'out there?' These scum that prey on new or naive sellers need to be stopped, but at the moment I see no way at all of doing it unless ebay allow cash on collection in certain circumstances, and I can't see that happening. Even then we have had threads from people who insist they would still use paypal and would refuse cash. In this thread alone it was not an item that would normally be collection only and would be possible to post via a courier, so how would even allowing cash on items that can only be collected have helped the seller if he wasn't aware of the scam?

in_dulge

Thanks for all your replies. I have learnt my lesson now. I would just like to know why there are still scores of listings on Ebay for 'Pick-Up' as delivery option. How do these sellers protect themselves if PayPal won't offer them any protection from fraudsters, as there wouldn't be any valid proof of delivery. I, for instance, do have a signed acknowledgement receipt from the buyer. But PayPal refused to accept it as a valid proof.

pinkgem

in_dulge wrote: »

Thanks for all your replies. I have learnt my lesson now. I would just like to know why there are still scores of listings on Ebay for 'Pick-Up' as delivery option. How do these sellers protect themselves if PayPal won't offer them any protection from fraudsters, as there wouldn't be any valid proof of delivery. I, for instance, do have a signed acknowledgement receipt from the buyer. But PayPal refused to accept it as a valid proof.

if you have their address you could attempt the small claims court

FloFlo

If they paid by paypal their address will be on the transaction details and if they collected they may be local. Personally I would go round and collect goods or payment.

soolin

FloFlo wrote: »

If they paid by paypal their address will be on the transaction details and if they collected they may be local. Personally I would go round and collect goods or payment.

The account is probably hijacked, so the paypal user and person collecting might not be linked at all.

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my_gorgeous_ellie-belle

Wow - i think i might just be nearlly falling for this one too. I don't know he seems genuine, and i dont like to think bad of people initially but he seems adament to collect the items from my house even though i have offered next day delivery to him at no extra cost. My only thought is he needs them tomorrow, and cant wait for post on Monday, but still - i have said yes but now just sent him a second email stating my concerns. I have asked him if he'll agree to pay in cash and if yes, i'll refund his paypal payment immediately. That way, i may lose a sale at worst but not lose out twice in losing item and payment.

cyril82

As people have already stated, this is a well known scam on ebay using paypal.
It is the openness to fraud which makes me question paypal's claims to be a safe way to pay online, they are far from safe for sellers, yet evidently safe for scammers.

If you had taken payment via any other means you would not have been left out of pocket. You were not involved in the fraud, the two people involved were the victim, and the scammer and it should be down to the victim to pursue the scammer. This may sound harsh but why should the seller lose out and the scammer gain, while the victim of the fraud is refunded?

It's one thing to criticise the seller for not ensuring they had protection from paypal but the same criticism could be levelled at the account holder who allowed their personal details to fall into the hands of a scammer, surely somewhere they could have taken more security measures to protect their account? it works both ways if you start that argument.

It depends how strongly the op feels but if it was me i'd fight paypal, they exposed you to fraud and appointed themselves judge and jury deciding in the buyers favour. But where is the proof of fraud? It would seem all that is required for this type of scam is for a buyer to buy an item, pay for it, receive the goods, report unauthorised use of account, get money back, keep goods. It's too simple and i wouldn't rule out that it was the real account holder who scammed you not a hacker.

If you want to claim your money back you could either launch a county court claim against paypal or the buyer.

Did you post to the buyers registered address on paypal? was the address verified? did you use a signed for postal service?
If the answer to all of the above is yes then i'd claim against the account holder, if it is him who scammed you it will take more than a click of a button to claim he was a victim of fraud and if he is the scammer you'll expose him and can have him arrested. If he was the victim of fraud surely he reported it to his bank or credit card company? so he'll have proof to defend your claim, in which case you concede and pursue paypal.

Did ebay insist you offered paypal on your listing? if so claim against paypal on the grounds that you did not use them by choice and they exposed you to fraud and further still as a payment processor they do not have legal right to reverse your funds without your say so, and you had the right to demand evidence of fraud before returning any money as you feel it may have been the account holder themselves who committed the fraud against you, using paypal to facilitate that fraud, which they happily complied with without taking reasonable steps to ensure that there was evidence that the buyer was the victim and not indeed the perpetrator. They are responsible for your loss for exposing you to fraud and acting negligently and also acting above their authority. I won a similar case against ebay when they failed to enter a defence after refunding 5 buyers a total of £700 without my authority, after they had signed for and received my goods. Which i provided proof of to Paypal.

As i said, it depends how strongly you feel but if it was me i'd fight it on principle.