Unpaid Nursing Home fees after death - who is liable?

localhero

Just a word of caution about writing stuff on Wills or even attaching things - best not to.

I would certainly agree that to make your executor's life easier, everyone should list all their assets and liabilities and keep it with the Will - just don't attach anything to the Will as this can cause problems later.

localhero

Having a list of assets and liabilities will not only ensure that nothing is forgotten about but it will also assist in valuing the estate for IHT purposes.

Mrsmoneypenny wrote:

Our wills have the list incorporated into the body of the will.

Your Will becomes a public record on death, so I'm not sure this is a good idea (joint bank accounts etc). Also what happens when you change bank - do you make a new Will?

Mrsmoneypenny wrote:

Of course, you would have to ensure that the way it was written was done properly through the proper professional body

Not sure what you meant by this. The only professional bodies that demand their members demonstrate their expertise by undertaking a compulsory entrance exam and ongoing training in preparing Wills are the Society of Trusts and Estate Practitioners (STEP), the Institute of Professional Willwriters (IPW) and Solicitors For the Elderly.

Unfortunately most people have blind faith in so called 'professionals' and any inaccuracies will often only be spotted when it's too late to put them right (ie at the probate stage). Not that solicitors will be complaining of course as there's good money to be earnt here.

margaretclare

One thing i have learnt from dealing with wills and the death of those nearest and dearest is that the more you can do while you are alive to make life easier for the executors, family and friends is to put as many of your details as possible in a safe place so that they can find all the information at once.

I could not agree more with the above.

One thing which I believe very firmly is that details of funeral that the person wanted should be left with the list of accounts, numbers, addresses etc already discussed. When I grew up it was simple - everyone was buried in the village churchyard. No one got up to speak, the vicar conducted the service as it had been for centuries. In the mid-1960s I was made aware that there was another option - cremation. When my first husband died in 1992, I spoke to the local funeral director who said 'I can book you a slot at the crematorium now'. I said 'Not so fast - he was a practising Catholic and must have a Requiem Mass'. But I wonder how many bereaved families have that said to them by the funeral director: 'We can book a slot at the crematorium' and, not knowing what else to do, they seize on that gratefully.

My younger daughter wanted a 'woodland burial' and we'd discussed it together and agreed that's what we'd both like. But because she didn't expect to die, she never wrote it down. Her MIL was very much against burial of any kind, and her widower went along with what his mum said.

I have made sure that our wishes - DH's and mine - are all written down, addresses of who to contact, everything that a future executor might need. We have a grey metal fireproof box and all important documents like copy wills are kept in there. My stepdaughter, who lives nearest, knows where that is. I tried to talk about things with my surviving daughter, but she said it's 'morbid and gruesome' and didn't want to know.

Errata

I understand that a person's wishes expressed in a will about how their remains should be disposed of can be ignored by those making the arrangements.

EdInvestor

margaretclare wrote: »

I could not agree more with the above.

One thing which I believe very firmly is that details of funeral that the person wanted should be left with the list of accounts, numbers, addresses etc already discussed.

This seems the best way to me, a file containing the will (or copies thereof),a list of accounts, incl whereabouts of documents (eg house deeds), and a statement of "last wishes" which could include funeral arrangements.

Given the complexity of probate and of sorting out financial affairs, making the basic info easy to find is a must. It's amazing how many bank accounts people have these days, and three or four pensions are quite normal.It's even more complicated if the deceased had investments.

But the cost of getting a bank or solicitor to do the work is outrageous.On the other hand, the probate and tax authorities are said to be pretty helpful, for once.

Savvy_Sue

Errata wrote: »

I understand that a person's wishes expressed in a will about how their remains should be disposed of can be ignored by those making the arrangements.

Indeed they can, but it certainly helps me to know that both my parents have said they would like to be cremated. The only family funeral I can remember going to was a burial, it was my maternal uncle, who is buried with his parents in N London. I am glad we don't have to go through that again, because a) none of us now live in that area and b) Dad had a wobbly turn and nearly fell into the grave!

I haven't written it down, but I've told DH I want the cremation /short service at the crem first, then the celebratory service at church afterwards, followed by a bunfight where they can all say how strange it is that I'm not in the kitchen organising people.

localhero

Mrsmoneypenny,

I think we all agree that Wills should be kept up to date, and that to make life easier for your executors we should keep our affairs nice and tidy.

But there is a big difference between keeping all your papers together in say a box and incorporating all sorts of personal information in the Will itself. As well as being impractical, fraud and identity theft is a big problem and all that personal information available to the public is a very bad idea.

I'm interested what's made you change your view, because you previously said this:

Mrsmoneypenny wrote: »

When my husband and I made our wills we were asked by the solicitor to put together a list of all shares, banks accounts, premium bonds, private pensions, insurances and anything else that we have in the way of accounts with account numbers, addresses and whether they are sole or joint accounts. This list is kept with our wills in a safe place and a copy with the solicitor, so that when the time comes everything is in one place (as long as we update it when necessary).

Perfectly sound advice and is on the same lines as Edinvestor's sensible suggestion.

Although sadly the solicitor was talking rubbish here:

Mrsmoneypenny wrote: »

We went to a solicitor....but the big thing was that the house would have to be in your names for at least 7 years to be in a position not to sell it for carehome fees.

Mrsmoneypenny wrote: »

I think my statement "you would have to ensure that the way it was written was done properly though the proper professional body" is quite self explanatory?

No, it's not self-explanatory at all. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on who you used and what 'professional body' they belonged to? Since the law allows anybody to prepare Wills, there are all sorts of 'organisations' that purport to be professional bodies. Most of which don't require their members to demonstrate their expertise by passing a compulsory entrance exam or obtain continuous training to keep up to date with the law.

Mrsmoneypenny wrote: »

We used a company that came to the house, did all the questions and answer, went away and then returned for the signing. They then took copies of insurance policies etc with them sealed in an envelope (this was mentioned on the wills too). The envelope is kept in storage.

Since the advice you've been given doesn't sound very good to me, I sincerely hope you've checked out their credentials properly as I would have concerns about just how watertight the Will is.

Mrsmoneypenny

Sorry didnt realise i was on trial here.

This thread is not about my will or your (localhero) view of the idiot I may or may not have employed to help me write it.

I wont return to this thread except to read updates from Ratty and so that no one else can take any offence, I have decided to remove the two posts.

Without knowing all my details, in extreme detail, which would never be written here, you can make any assumption you like if it makes you feel better.

I dont know what you have to prove here. But carry on without me.

As an update, i notice that local hero has also removed one of his posts.

sloughflint

Mrsmoneypenny wrote: »

I wont return to this thread except to read updates from Ratty and so that no one else can take any offence, I have decided to remove the posts.

No offence taken but I didn't particularly like the idea of including details in the actual Will when I originally read your posts.

The thought that crossed my mind was for joint accounts which would become sole name accounts. Knowing that Wills become public documents, I wouldn't like the fact that names, addresses and account numbers would be readily available for all to see.
A separate regularly updated document seems wiser to me.

ratty67

Wow! What a time you've all been having while my back was turned! I don't want anyone to leave this thread or to stop posting. I think this has become a very valuable resource to anyone encountering problems with wills/greedy relatives/debts following death etc. I don't want any falling out!

Some very good points have been raised, that it is vitally important to make your final wishes clearly known and written correctly and to make sure all of the relavent paperwork is securely kept in one place.

I also think that most of us here would already have a good idea as to which family member, if any, would take advantage of us in our most senior years. How to keep that person 'out of the loop' would I think provide a lively discussion!

Today's updates are a mixed bag but generally of a positive outlook.

1) Phoenix Life have paid out. To the solicitor. DH sent all required documentation by rec. delivery on April 27th. The solicitor, uninstructed to do so wrote to them on April 29th. They sent her the cheque in the name of her firm. DH went ballistic. I haven't seen him that angry in a long while. She's now sending DH a cheque covering the amount and correctly written out - ie. to the estate.

The solicitor can consider herself out of a job. It's bad enough figuring out the mess the daughter has made of things, it's another thing to be clearing up after a useless solicitor.

2) DH has had a very useful and long conversation with someone from the LA. They are still awaiting official confirmation from the DWP that the daughter was appointee for the lady's pension but their position has very clearly shifted now away from the estate and onto the daughter's liability.

Apparently daughter was threatened with legal action twice regarding her hit-and-miss approach to paying the care home fees so the belief now seems to be that it isn't the fault of the estate that she didn't finish paying the 'debt' which is what we've said all along! The decision ultimately rests with the legal team.