The Middle-class - "Sorry, we're a bit useless!"

lostinrates

mewbie wrote: »

LIR you are always saying sorry. Yet you ripped into me big time the other night. Lovebite my @ss.

I have a lot to apologise for.

It was a lovebite. Just accept I'm sweet and apologetic, but ferociously loving

Pity my bruised DH and be grateful your lovebite was virtual.

mewbie_2

lostinrates wrote: »

Just accept I'm sweet and apologetic

OK, just accept that I am an arrogant ahole, with occasional bursts of venom. It's cathartic. And fun.

lostinrates

mewbie wrote: »

OK, just accept that I am an arrogant ahole, with occasional bursts of venom. It's cathartic. And fun.

If I hadn't accepted, why would I be lovebiting?:rolleyes:

I don't like to offend people. Because I can be very ''earnest'' in trying to be clear it can make trying to be funny difficult.

I think poor Cleaver almost fainted in a PM I sent him, :rotfl:

Quasar

lostinrates wrote: »

I think people can get ahead regardless of class in Uk now too. I accept entirely what you say about racism rather than classism being the north/south issue, but actully meant it as an extra, not comparitive issue, different to the way we see the n/s divide in UK, for the obvious politcal/race issues. I feel that their remains a ''cultural'' divide that trancends this...not in the same way exactly as UK, I agree, but to similar effect. In DH's employers for example, I noted that people told me who other employee's ''people'' were, in much the same way as I might expect of a certain circle here, and, as a rather crass example, Dimitri d'Asburgo Lorena obviously feels his 'heretage' is relevant, if nothing else as a marketing angle for his restaurant in Florence

For the meritocracy, something I think Italy remains leagues ahead of than Uk is appreciation of intellectualism. It seems intellectual attainment is valued more than here. And I'd also further your points by adding that 'the people' rather thana class are in the main the cultural hairs, with far greater appreciation of the countries achitectural and cultural wealth. But then, of course, (another crass example) one could counter that with the de Mosta legacy a little. Is his example so different from his UK counter part?

It was not a critism, just an observation of my experiences, I apologise if it caused offece where none was intended.

LOL no offence at all. I find it very difficult to compare the compartmentalised class system that has existed in the UK for centuries - now lessening but still making its influence felt now and then.

Dimitry d'Asburgo Lorena is a very grand name: Asburgo being the old Imperial house of Austria, and Lorena the French dukes of Lorrain. Aristocrats the world over do set great store on their heritage. When you are born in what is assumed to be a privileged status, you don't give it up easily. Ditto for the British classes: it is the working class which has started to break the barriers by demanding better education and opportunities.

As for the Italian north and south, it is a cultural difference first and foremost. It is an "us" and "them" issue which I find is stoked from both sides in so many different way that it's impossible to do it justice on a forum.

As for intellectualism you are dead right. Intellectual achievement is very valued over there, and nobody is excluded but all are encouraged. Art and literature are very important and no student, no matter what their future plans are, gets away without knowing about our artistic and literary heritage.

As for da Mosta - do you mean da Mosto? I know little of him apart that he is an architect and a Venetian.

lostinrates

Quasar wrote: »

LOL no offence at all. I find it very difficult to compare the compartmentalised class system that has existed in the UK for centuries - now lessening but still making its influence felt now and then.

Dimitry d'Asburgo Lorena is a very grand name: Asburgo being the old Imperial house of Austria, and Lorena the French dukes of Lorrain. Aristocrats the world over do set great store on their heritage. When you are born in what is assumed to be a privileged status, you don't give it up easily. Ditto for the British classes: it is the working class which has started to break the barriers by demanding better education and opportunities.

As for the Italian north and south, it is a cultural difference first and foremost. It is an "us" and "them" issue which I find is stoked from both sides in so many different way that it's impossible to do it justice on a forum.

As for intellectualism you are dead right. Intellectual achievement is very valued over there, and nobody is excluded but all are encouraged. Art and literature are very important and no student, no matter what their future plans are, gets away without knowing about our artistic and literary heritage.

As for da Mosta - do you mean da Mosto? I know little of him apart that he is an architect and a Venetian.

Of course, sorry, a brutta figura indeed-see I always need to apologise, 'da Mosto'. Well, I think he is a good representation of what I was trying to say in that his story is the same as many UK equivalents now.

I have a lot I'd like to say on this, but as you say, the forum is a difficult media, and the need for discretion and security sometimes frustrating.

Quasar

lostinrates wrote: »

Of course, sorry, a brutta figura indeed-see I always need to apologise, 'da Mosto'. Well, I think he is a good representation of what I was trying to say in that his story is the same as many UK equivalents now.

I have a lot I'd like to say on this, but as you say, the forum is a difficult media, and the need for discretion and security sometimes frustrating.

Oh I wasn't thinking of security or discretion. Comparing the social set up of different countries is a very acceptable and interesting debate, imho. Unfortunately though, it is also so complex and has such bewildering ramifications that my heart sinks at the thought, LOL!

lostinrates

Quasar wrote: »

Oh I wasn't thinking of security or discretion. Comparing the social set up of different countries is a very acceptable and interesting debate, imho. Unfortunately though, it is also so complex and has such bewildering ramifications that my heart sinks at the thought, LOL!

No, but I am! I want to give examples of which I have more intimate understanding but can't!

I also agree with the complexity though. For example, discussion of Austria and the Lorraine, in relation to the man I mention, is in itself a huge topic dragging in the history of Northern Italy that might not be familiar to many contributors: (it wasn't to me before, I filled my time living there with loving there) and is, I agree, far too immense to cover with any justness to support a relatively minor point I raised.

FWIW I felt things that weren't discussed in relation to these topics in UK were in Italy, and the parts that were not discussed in Italy are more so here.

Quasar

lostinrates wrote: »

No, but I am! I want to give examples of which I have more intimate understanding but can't!

I also agree with the complexity though. For example, discussion of Austria and the Lorraine, in relation to the man I mention, is in itself a huge topic dragging in the history of Northern Italy that might not be familiar to many contributors: (it wasn't to me before, I filled my time living there with loving there) and is, I agree, far too immense to cover with any justness to support a relatively minor point I raised.

FWIW I felt things that weren't discussed in relation to these topics in UK were in Italy, and the parts that were not discussed in Italy are more so here.

That is always the case, because a given cultural mindset will pick on things that are missed by the other. I myself, having lived here for over 20 years, now see things about my country that I would never have, and my co-nationals do not. Likewise, because of my different upbringing, I see things here from an angle that is impossible for the Brits to take. The same can be said of any other country and culture under the sun, of course.

lostinrates

Quasar wrote: »

That is always the case, because a given cultural mindset will pick on things that are missed by the other. I myself, having lived here for over 20 years, now see things about my country that I would never have, and my co-nationals do not. Likewise, because of my different upbringing, I see things here from an angle that is impossible for the Brits to take. The same can be said of any other country and culture under the sun, of course.

I've lived in too many places. I think it makes me always a bit of a cultural observer. I've lived in England the longest though, and my secondary and tertiary education was here, and thats pretty formative. DH, like I, was educated all over the place for primary ecucation, but Italy for 'secondary' and university here and US. We jokingly say we are both citizens of the world, with UK residency.

BernardM

Zagu wrote: »

Haven't read the whole thread, but the problem with the protests is that they get hijacked by every fringe group in existence. Marxists. Socialists. Free Tibet/Palestine/School Lunches. PETA. Greens. Unions. Student Fees. All it does is dilute their cause, not strengthen it.

Principles of resistance were articulated in a paper written by leading trade union barrister John Hendy QC, who referred to this quote from the great lawyer and human rights campaigner, D. N. Pritt QC:

‘The state of the law in a capitalist society is a reflection of the ability of the working class to organise against it. The law reflects the balance, at any moment of time, between the power of capitalism and the organised power of labour’.

John Hendy QC went on to write (and it is worth quoting him at some length): ‘It follows therefore that only resistance can hold the line against further depredations and only pressure can advance and improve the position. Concessions and capitulation will only encourage further legal and ideological attack. Indeed, mere lack of resistance encourages further attack’.

He wrote: ‘The law itself may be difficult to understand but the fact of its unfairness and injustice is not so difficult to explain and understand….It is necessary to draw on our own rich history of resistance to unjust laws. The Cambridge tailors in 1725; the Tolpuddle Martyrs in 1824; the freeing of the Betteshanger miners’ leaders imprisoned after the prosecution of 1,000 for going on strike in 1941; the freeing of the Pentonville Dockers in 1972; the struggle against the Industrial Relations Act from 1970 – 1974 and the ability of the National Union of Mineworkers to continue their strike unabated for one year in 1984-5, in spite of being sequestrated, being in receivership, having some 40 injunctions against them and over 10,000 of their members prosecuted – all those are powerful examples without even looking overseas.

‘….Unquestioning acceptance of the “rule of law” and the subject of compliance with unjust laws need to be debated and for this debate, history and jurisprudence must play their part.

‘…Sir Thomas More was executed for refusing to accept the Act of Supremacy…[while] the Nuremburg Trials accepted that there were higher principles which men are under a duty to conform to than the law.’