The Middle-class - "Sorry, we're a bit useless!"

Quasar

I think the present political and economical debacle goes well beyond class. It is not only the middle classes that are struggling, but everyone except the very rich.

The government seems increasingly detached from the reality in the streets and in the homes of the country they run, because so few of them have had to tread those streets recently.

In any case, the concept of class has become far more fluid than it was in the past, because nowadays it's easier to cross the boundaries - simply by getting an education and/or a professional or managerial job.

I'm a baker's daughter but that baker went on to own shops and land and I went on to higher education and now an unusual job. I'd say I'm middle class although I don't earn a great deal. (I'm also foreign, which perhaps makes all this irrelevant to me. )

Zagu

Haven't read the whole thread, but the problem with the protests is that they get hijacked by every fringe group in existence. Marxists. Socialists. Free Tibet/Palestine/School Lunches. PETA. Greens. Unions. Student Fees. All it does is dilute their cause, not strengthen it.

MPD

Zagu wrote: »

Haven't read the whole thread, but the problem with the protests is that they get hijacked by every fringe group in existence. Marxists. Socialists. Free Tibet/Palestine/School Lunches. PETA. Greens. Unions. Student Fees. All it does is dilute their cause, not strengthen it.

Too true, why would the middle classes protest when the protests would bring them into contact with the working class and underclass?

mardatha

Ninky - if you work in telly then yer a YUPPY !

Georgie4

donaldtramp wrote: »

I'd agree but it isn't an excuse to be bandied about either.
I haven't criticised, just trying to define.

Sue I know you say that you don't "like it" but that's the definition and you fall squarely into it. I haven't moaned about benefit claimants once either;)

You haven't got time you are too busy moaning about public sector workers;)

mewbie_2

Quasar wrote: »

I'm a baker's daughter but

I've plenty of dough?

lostinrates

Quasar wrote: »

I'm a baker's daughter but that baker went on to own shops and land and I went on to higher education and now an unusual job. I'd say I'm middle class although I don't earn a great deal. (I'm also foreign, which perhaps makes all this irrelevant to me. )

I think you're Italian?

I think the social concept is present in Italy: I see it, anyway. I also think that its further confused by the politcal 'issues', and the north/south divide. I don't find the social construct that different in the north than over here TBH. (I don't know the south)

Quasar

lostinrates wrote: »

I think you're Italian?

I think the social concept is present in Italy: I see it, anyway. I also think that its further confused by the politcal 'issues', and the north/south divide. I don't find the social construct that different in the north than over here TBH. (I don't know the south)

Italy is a meritocracy, like the US. It doesn't matter how humble your beginnigs are and how poor your family is/was. One can still move on the professional and economic scale and will be cheered on, so to speak, because we have no history of the rigid class system the UK had for centuries, when "rising above your station" was resisted by those higher up in the social pecking order. We have no such concept in Italy. There was of course the aristocratic class when we were a kingdom, but for the rest there was no bar to anyone getting up the social ladder.

As for the north and south divide, this is not a question of class but of cultural and historical baggage harking back from when Italy was divided in different states - therefore making the south somewhat "foreign" to the north and viceversa. A southern Italian still finds hostility (shameful though that is) in the north, but his/her social status is nonetheless determined by economic and professional dynamics, and the issue of provenance is merely an unpleasant version of racism, not of class.

Being a fair haired Italian from the north, I was brought up in a culture of prejudice against the south, and going to live abroad was the best thing for me to see how stupid and unjust that is.

lostinrates

Quasar wrote: »

Italy is a meritocracy, like the US. It doesn't matter how humble your beginnigs are and how poor your family is/was. One can still move on the professional and economic scale and will be cheered on, so to speak, because we have no history of the rigid class system the UK had for centuries, when "rising above your station" was resisted by those higher up in the social pecking order. We have no such concept in Italy. There was of course the aristocratic class when we were a kingdom, but for the rest there was no bar to anyone getting up the social ladder.

As for the north and south divide, this is not a question of class but of cultural and historical baggage harking back from when Italy was divided in different states - therefore making the south somewhat "foreign" to the north and viceversa. A southern Italian still finds hostility (shameful though that is) in the north, but his/her social status is nonetheless determined by economic and professional dynamics, and the issue of provenance is merely an unpleasant version of racism, not of class.

Being a fair haired Italian from the north, I was brought up in a culture of prejudice against the south, and going to live abroad was the best thing for me to see how stupid and unjust that is.

I think people can get ahead regardless of class in Uk now too. I accept entirely what you say about racism rather than classism being the north/south issue, but actully meant it as an extra, not comparitive issue, different to the way we see the n/s divide in UK, for the obvious politcal/race issues. I feel that their remains a ''cultural'' divide that trancends this...not in the same way exactly as UK, I agree, but to similar effect. In DH's employers for example, I noted that people told me who other employee's ''people'' were, in much the same way as I might expect of a certain circle here, and, as a rather crass example, Dimitri d'Asburgo Lorena obviously feels his 'heretage' is relevant, if nothing else as a marketing angle for his restaurant in Florence

For the meritocracy, something I think Italy remains leagues ahead of than Uk is appreciation of intellectualism. It seems intellectual attainment is valued more than here. And I'd also further your points by adding that 'the people' rather thana class are in the main the cultural hairs, with far greater appreciation of the countries achitectural and cultural wealth. But then, of course, (another crass example) one could counter that with the de Mosta legacy a little. Is his example so different from his UK counter part?

It was not a critism, just an observation of my experiences, I apologise if it caused offense where none was intended.

mewbie_2

lostinrates wrote: »

I apologise if it caused offece where none was intended.

LIR you are always saying sorry. Yet you ripped into me big time the other night. Lovebite my @ss.