After the Revolution?

MyLastFiver

MrFonzerelli wrote: »

It's never quite as simple as letting markets decide on the natural order. There is always market intervention, whether it be through taxation, legality, regulation, protectionism or govt control (and others that i can't think of right now, as it's pretty late!).
I agree with the rest.

Yes! I meant to say something about this earlier but forgot. "Natural" market prices do not take account of externalities. The price of a barrel of crude, for example, does not take into account the destruction of the Niger delta; the damage to the atmosphere when it is refined and burnt; the risk of it being spilled at sea; the wars being fought to secure supplies of it; blah blah etc.

slopemaster

Re the story about corner shop and buying local - yes, I do agree with everything you say, and I buy my fruit, veg and meat and some other things in local shops and the Co-op, and only use Tesco for stuff like flour and pasta cos I really need to save the money...
But I was thinking, the success of supermarkets is not only due to being cheaper. I think there is a side to us that actually likes the anonymity and not haveing a relationship with people. This is also why people stay in those boring chain hotels etc.

a slightly extreme example brought this home to me when i lived in Cairo a few years back before they really had supermarkets. so you went to the dairy for yoghurt and cheese, another shop for fruit, and so on. And in some of those shops you bargained over the price. And in others maybe you drank tea with the owner. It was great, so long as you were feeling good. But occasionally when feeling tired and wanting to hide, i didn't want all that local colour, I just wanted to go in a supermarket and pick things off a shelf without having to interact with anyone...

MyLastFiver

Cleaver wrote: »

I guess so, but I think you can do both. If you asked that same family about money they will still work on a model that they want to make as much money as possible and be better than the other shops on the road. It's just not 'at any cost', and not at the expense of losing their integrity, pride and ethos.

Sure. Your anecdote, and my black pudding story, proves that there can be trade and commerce without the ruthless squeezing of commodity/producer/consumer for every last droplet of value.

Arguably, this has come about since the advent of the PLC. Mr Bunn the Baker could chat to his customers, set his prices altruistucally based on costs, and give free gingerbread men to the passing kids. But Bunn's Bakers PLC have the shareholders to pay. And they've never been to the bakery. And couldn't give a f*ck about the passing kids.

lostinrates

MyLastFiver wrote: »

Sure. Your anecdote, and my black pudding story, proves that there can be trade and commerce without the ruthless squeezing of commodity/producer/consumer for every last droplet of value.

Arguably, this has come about since the advent of the PLC. Mr Bunn the Baker could chat to his customers, set his prices altruistucally based on costs, and give free gingerbread men to the passing kids. But Bunn's Bakers PLC have the shareholders to pay. And they've never been to the bakery. And couldn't give a f*ck about the passing kids.

I'm enjoying reading and loving the idea but finding it hard, no, impossible to believe it is withing human nature.:(

That community and good acts are good, and present, though, I can agree. My non UK family were landowners and during the war and my Great grandfather ..a fairly well of farmer and businessman, kept several families going with the produce he produced for 'community use' family and those who wouldn't other wise eat rather than for sale in one of his businesses. He let people who arrived build homes, on his land too and managed to create employment. Of course, that he had the land, andthe reassurance of his own wealth and that he knew his family would be fed and watered come what may, is what enabled him to be generous and well remembered.

I'm good at finding community where Ilive. Bt community as oppossed to commne is what suits me.

slopemaster

Hmm, arguably, yes...
Lets say worsened, not come about...
i think Schumacher and his 'Buddhist economics' (in small is Beautiful) is very good in pointing out the way the system can force even individual entrepreneurs to act in a greedy, selfish way when thay act AS business people, even if they are not like that in the rest of their life

MyLastFiver

lostinrates wrote: »

community as oppossed to commne is what suits me.

I don't see the contradiction. A benevolent mercantile society would be bliss.

My non UK family were landowners and during the war and my Great grandfather ..a fairly well of farmer and businessman, kept several families going with the produce he produced for 'community use' family and those who wouldn't other wise eat rather than for sale in one of his businesses. He let people who arrived build homes, on his land too and managed to create employment. Of course, that he had the land, andthe reassurance of his own wealth and that he knew his family would be fed and watered come what may, is what enabled him to be generous and well remembered.

What a fantastic story. And further proof that benevolent commerce is possible, efficient, functional and desirable.

Can I ask, where did your great grandfather live?

MyLastFiver

slopemaster wrote: »

Hmm, arguably, yes...
Lets say worsened, not come about...
i think Schumacher and his 'Buddhist economics' (in small is Beautiful) is very good in pointing out the way the system can force even individual entrepreneurs to act in a greedy, selfish way when thay act AS business people, even if they are not like that in the rest of their life

Hmmm interesting ideas... <google here we come>

MyLastFiver

slopemaster wrote: »

But I was thinking, the success of supermarkets is not only due to being cheaper. I think there is a side to us that actually likes the anonymity and not haveing a relationship with people. This is also why people stay in those boring chain hotels etc.

Personally I despise supermarket shopping because it's such a sterile and lonely experience. Much prefer shopping locally, although I have to concede it's less convenient...

You're right about hotels - homogeneity breeds confidence in a brand. You're never going to get an "off" burger in McDonald's, a rude checkout girl in Tesco's or a dirty room in a Travelodge. Nor are you going to experience anything interesting or life-affirming either

slopemaster

So, anyway, it seems everyone is thinking of a post-revolutionary society of farmers markets and corner shops?
How about abolishing money, anyone up for that?

MyLastFiver

The way the pound is going, I think we already have...