Fixtures and fittings - at what stage should we negotiate?

gelato_cat

Hi all

Bf and I have found the house we would like to buy and are poised to make an offer tomorrow.

The vendor is selling to leave the country and, therefore, we think we may be able to ask her if she's leaving any of the furniture/white goods etc. There's not a lot in the house, the most we'd be asking for is a dining table, chairs and a couple of bookcases.

She's just done up the kitchen with a new oven, hob and worktop as she is worried that she is going to have to rent the place out (it's been on the market since September). We first saw the house last weekend and when we went back on Saturday she'd made loads of improvements already.

Bf is going to ring the EA with the offer tomorrow morning. My negotiation strategy went out of the window long ago as he has made it clear to the EA that we are extremely keen on the house :mad: All things considered we are only offering 5% below asking :rolleyes: but that's another story.

I've said that I think we need to negotiate on F&F when putting in the offer. He doesn't seem to understand and says the only things he's worried about is the fridge-freezer and washing machine, as we need to know whether we need to bring ours!!! I showed him an article about a guy who'd viewed a newly done-up house and thought that's what he was getting, only to find out on completion day that it wasn't! He just wants to sort out the offer tomorrow and "doesn't want to spend the day arguing about furniture".

I pointed out that if we agree a price and then negotiate for F&F later, the vendor may try and get us to up our offer to cover the F&F. For example she may remove and sell the oven and hob which would leave us with the hassle and expense of getting new ones put in. She didn't seem spiteful when we met her on Saturday but you never know. She may decide recouping some of the expense would be a good idea. On the other hand, I may be worrying about nothing. Bf is all like "I assume they're leaving X, Y and Z" - I said "did you actually read that article?!".

Therefore, I want to establish at the offer stage what she's willing to include, then make sure that the contract reflects this when we receive it.

Does this sound sensible? What's the done thing when it comes to negotiating F&F?

I should mention that bf is the one doing the offer negotiations as it's turned out that he's had the most contact with the estate agent and has built up some rapport with them, so it might seem weird to them that I suddenly take over liaison when it comes to talking money. However if anyone thinks it might be better for me to do it, please say so (as I'm beginning to think he's going to f-ck it up)!

Any advice please?

TIA

Suze

Edit: She hasn't filled in a F&F form for a solicitor yet as I asked her whether she'd got her legals sorted - she hasn't. So it doesn't look like we'll fall into the trap of having a months-old F&F list written into the contract even if we agree what's included now.

Jigsawpuzzle_2

Negotiate yourself!!!!!!

gelato_cat

OK - thanks - but when?? At the time of placing the offer?

Suze

SavingSteve

Tell the EA you'd like to know which of the F&F are included before you make an offer. That way you will know what you are paying/offering for.

Robert_Sterling_3

Ask what furniture and fitting will remain before you make your offer. The furniture and fitting to remain will be then listed and sent to you, via solicitors, in due course and prior to exchange of contracts.

Nenen

I'm no expert but my gut feeling would be that if you are offering only 5% under in the current market (which is more than generous) then this offer would still be extremely tempting to the vendor if you said something along the lines of.... we would like to offer £x to include all of the following; cooker, etc etc etc.

It sounds as if you and bf have real issues over this negotiation - maybe it would be a good idea to sort this out before you make such a huge financial commitment together. If necessary, let this house go and wait for something else to come up taking the time to sort things out between you. From what you've said I can imagine if it all goes pear-shaped, for whatever reason, you could both end up blaming each other and become quite bitter about it- bricks and mortar are not worth that IMHO!

Doozergirl

I'll tell you now that the article doesn't matter - the guy was an idiot. Anything that isn't tied down must never be assumed as part of a sale, however, there is a fixtures and fitting form that the vendor fills out immediately after accepting your offer (it's optional on the HIP actually, they may have done it already) and that will detail what they are prepared to leave - which may be more than you expected - I've had FTBs say 'we'll offer this but we want x included' when I'm leaving carpets and blinds anyway!

If you are prepared to within 5% of asking price then it might be really great to ask if you can have x,y and z included but you have to bear in mind that the automatic response from the vendor might be to add a certain amount to the sale price, which is the value they price their furniture at.

Now, I know that I value my furniture higher in negotiations during selling my house than I might if I were just trying to get rid of it. Our last house, I knew I got a good deal on the range cooker and dishwasher - I offered them to our buyers for 100 less than I paid. If I'd have sold them on ebay I"m not sure I'd have got that much, even with them being three months old.

There are nearly new bargains out there to be had - she won't be offering you a bargain if it's in with the house. There was a thread on here a while back - probably a year ago where a woman was charging more for the furniture than she had paid! Honestly, between the posters on here, we drilled down every single piece of furniture (it was a 1 bed) to the make and model (mostly Ikea) and howled with laughter at what the woman was asking for it.

If you negotiate stuff in then it needs to be if you are prepared to play hardball. It's when you are so close to each other in what you expect that a vendor will place less value on their f&f than they will on cold hard cash. The sofas I am sitting on came from helping friends to buy their place. I'd got the vendor as far as they were going to go, my friends had offered me a very expensive pair of new shoes as payment and I ended up getting the suite thrown in instead. I saved them the cost of a pair of Louboutins and got myself a lovely sofa, lol! (Shot myself in the foot really as H may have agreed to a new sofa, but not a 300 pound pair of shoes!)

I think you should go a little lower than within 5% of asking - have there been price drops? Do you have Property Bee installed? 5% below is where I think you should be aiming to agree, not start your offers.

gelato_cat

Thanks DG - I see what you mean, but it's easy to get clouded by the situation.

I posted previously about this house as it's on with joint agents. Basically it's been up since September - started at £460k and was reduced to £425k in November. No further price drops and the vendor can't wait to move back to her home country. So much so that she is now thinking about renting the place out (hence the renovations).

We were originally thinking about offering £390k as that's 10% off, but when we saw them on Sat, the hubby said they'd had around four viewings per week and two offers, which were low. We are *guessing* that offering below £400k will be refused for psychological reasons (£399k sounding a lot less than £400k). However, like I say, we are only guessing.

Just run through with my bf what we think we should do:

1) Ring EA in morning and give her feedback on the two second viewings we had on Sat. Tell her which house is our first choice and that we are going to make an offer today, but we have some questions about F&F which we will e-mail

2) E-mail F&F list and wait for response

3) Ring EA, point out we have sold flat, have AIP, have 40% deposit, have solicitor waiting, are as keen to move as she is etc and we want to offer...

4) Wait for EA to get response from vendor and take it from there

Any further thoughts?

Suze

gelato_cat

Sorry, yes - have Property Bee installed and that's where I got the info about the price drops (and EAs have been transparent about it too!).

Reading your post again, DG - are you basically telling us not to even think about the F&F and just negotiate on the price of the house?

Suze

harrup

Suzey wrote: »

I pointed out that if we agree a price and then negotiate for F&F later, the vendor may try and get us to up our offer to cover the F&F. For example she may remove and sell the oven and hob which would leave us with the hassle and expense of getting new ones put in. She didn't seem spiteful when we met her on Saturday but you never know. She may decide recouping some of the expense would be a good idea. On the other hand, I may be worrying about nothing. Bf is all like "I assume they're leaving X, Y and Z" - I said "did you actually read that article?!".

Therefore, I want to establish at the offer stage what she's willing to include, then make sure that the contract reflects this when we receive it.

Does this sound sensible? What's the done thing when it comes to negotiating F&F?

.

Let me precede this by openly stating that I'm of limited use since I haven't bought a house in 20 years! However, observing my friends house purchases over the last couple of decades, I think your suggestion is a most sensible one i.e in establishing what EXACTLY is or isn't included in the PP PRIOR to putting in an offer. Relying on assumptions is not the best strategy. I'd ask for a detailed list of every item that is included: which carpets ( one friend bought a house with fitted carpets only to find than half of them had een removed when moving in! She was delighted since it saved her the effort but she may not have been), curtains, bathroom cabinets, garden plants.

As to the hob/oven I presume this is free standing rather than built-in? Is it listed in the EA's sales description? As in " kitchen featuring a new Miele hob & oven, dishwasher, blah-blah...". If it is, you could assume that it is included in the PP, but it's best to establish it firmly. If not built-in, she may consider it an optional extra for you to purchase....although I think this unlikely. Second hand appliances fetch limited amounts even if they are relatively new and unused and I can't see her blowing a sale on the grounds of a hob! And since she is emigrating....

I wouldn't hold my breath that she is willing to throw in the dining furniture, book cases, fridge freezer or washing machine for free ( unless the latter ones are built in appliances). Expecting her to do so may be a tad unreasonable but it's a case of "don't ask - don't get". Personally, I wouldn't, unless I'd be glad to get rid of the things or they were made to measure for that particular home. But what can she say other than "no"? If she feels that the property is competitively priced for a quick sale, or the property has LOTS of interested buyers, she may decline. And never forget: often it's not WHAT we are asked to do but HOW. An initial polite request ( re;dining room furniture & book cases) may slip down easier than a demand.

Good luck!

gelato_cat

Thanks for the reply.

The hob and oven aren't listed in the adverts, as they've literally only just been put in (as the vendor is thinking about renting the house out). They are fitted rather than free-standing. They've been in less than a week so she's used them a handful of times!

Suze

harrup wrote: »

As to the hob/oven I presume this is free standing rather than built-in? Is it listed in the EA's sales description? As in " kitchen featuring a new Miele hob & oven, dishwasher, blah-blah...". If it is, you could assume that it is included in the PP, but it's best to establish it firmly. If not built-in, she may consider it an optional extra for you to purchase....although I think this unlikely. Second hand appliances fetch limited amounts even if they are relatively new and unused and I can't see her blowing a sale on the grounds of a hob! And since she is emigrating....

I wouldn't hold my breath that she is willing to throw in the dining furniture, book cases, fridge freezer or washing machine for free ( unless the latter ones are built in appliances). Expecting her to do so may be a tad unreasonable but it's a case of "don't ask - don't get". Personally, I wouldn't, unless I'd be glad to get rid of the things or they were made to measure for that particular home. But what can she say other than "no"? If she feels that the property is competitively priced for a quick sale, or the property has LOTS of interested buyers, she may decline. And never forget: often it's not WHAT we are asked to do but HOW. An initial polite request ( re;dining room furniture & book cases) may slip down easier than a demand.

Good luck!