UPDATED: Air Source Heat Pumps/Air Con - Full Info & Guide, is it cheaper to run than mains gas?

TiredGeek

We put a dehumidifier and the clothes horse under the stairs to dry clothes, it's very effective

nande2000

I've already got a heat pump tumble drier in the garage so no worries on the clothes drying front.

I honestly think the 8.5kw unit is best for us; we have a 2m2 'airlock' area next to the front door (i.e. excluded from the rest of the house by another door) and also a 16m2 conservatory which we close off from the house with internal doors when it gets too cold. If I exclude that area of the house when calculating heat loss the Ecodan 8.5kw unit fits perfectly. We will also still have a 5kw SF stove in the lounge and the stanley range cooker in the kitchen which i will convert back to SF and fill the boiler with sand to get the heat up in the depths of winter.

Best quote ive had so far to fit the 8.5kw unit is £8,600 (not inc RHPP) and that is from the company who fitted my PV and I trust them as they did a thorough job.

The alternative is keep my oil boiler and link with a new solid fuel stove via thermal store.

Northern_Boy_3

I've just had a couple of quotes in form two different suppliers (each of which provided quotes for a pellet boiler and ASHP). I was previously sceptical about ASHP as there are alot of horror stories of them being hugely uneconomical in the winter if they aren't spec'd right but I'm beginning to lean towards them - the big question is how do you know if they are spec'd right!??

One company have calculated an annual consumption of approx 35000kWH (with a peak heat demand of 13.6kWh), the other 11,000kWH. The former is recommending two Panasonic T-CAP 9kw pumps, the latter is recommending one Ecodan 8.5kw.

I've seen many glowing reviews of Ecodan (one or two less complimentary ones too) but there seems to be complete radio silence on the Panasonic Aquarea range. Panasonic claim a 4.74 COP at 7+ degrees and 2.4 COP at -15 which seems too good to be true. If it could get anywhere near that, I would impressed, mind.

I'm thinking of opting for a third quote (to maybe see if a pattern emerges with the calculations of one of the two current quotes) but does anyone have any advice either way on Panasonic?

ta muchly...

John_Pierpoint

Have you been given the SAP (standard assessment procedure) detailed calculations for the heat losses from your building?
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/emissions/sap/sap.aspx
Have you done everything possible to upgrade the insulation of the envelope and minimise air changes?.
I think this will become a legal requirement come January?
It makes a lot more sense to spend another £300 on insulation rather than £3,000 on a bigger heat pump.
Is your household prepared to understand and adapt to a home that does not have the "instant" response of Gas fired central heating?
What are your plans for the -5 degree cold snap in January?

Both those quotes cannot be right.

[Deleted User]

Northern_Boy wrote: »

I've just had a couple of quotes in form two different suppliers (each of which provided quotes for a pellet boiler and ASHP). I was previously sceptical about ASHP as there are alot of horror stories of them being hugely uneconomical in the winter if they aren't spec'd right but I'm beginning to lean towards them - the big question is how do you know if they are spec'd right!??

One company have calculated an annual consumption of approx 35000kWH (with a peak heat demand of 13.6kWh), the other 11,000kWH. The former is recommending two Panasonic T-CAP 9kw pumps, the latter is recommending one Ecodan 8.5kw.

I've seen many glowing reviews of Ecodan (one or two less complimentary ones too) but there seems to be complete radio silence on the Panasonic Aquarea range. Panasonic claim a 4.74 COP at 7+ degrees and 2.4 COP at -15 which seems too good to be true. If it could get anywhere near that, I would impressed, mind.

I'm thinking of opting for a third quote (to maybe see if a pattern emerges with the calculations of one of the two current quotes) but does anyone have any advice either way on Panasonic?

ta muchly...

As an Ecodan owner I went with this brand as there is a big support network and are manufactured locally to me in the UK. Other brand names no matter how well known may have little or no support.

The annual consumption you have been given for the Panasonic is clearly wrong, approx £291 per month to run it... Suggest getting another quote.

As said above insulation is important but more so for low temp heat pumps.

Cheers

Northern_Boy_3

John_Pierpoint: Thanks for the response. This is being done as part of a refurb and extension project of 1929 semi (turning a 3 bedroomed semin into a 4 bedroomed semi with a large kitchen diner). Although it already has cavity wall insulation, we will be adding further insulation (internally) to the existing walls (50mm Kingspan) before re-plastering. Windows are likewise being upgraded and obviously the new external walls (where we are extending) will be insulated beyond current reg requirements. heating will be wet underfloor downstairs and oversized radiators upstairs. Both suppliers have been made aware of these plans by my architect. However, I don't know whether their calculations were based on the standard SAP model.

jeepjunkie: just to clarify (I am newbie!), are you saying that the Panasonic quote hugely overestimated my annual consumption?

[Deleted User]

Northern_Boy wrote: »

John_Pierpoint: Thanks for the response. This is being done as part of a refurb and extension project of 1929 semi (turning a 3 bedroomed semin into a 4 bedroomed semi with a large kitchen diner). Although it already has cavity wall insulation, we will be adding further insulation (internally) to the existing walls (50mm Kingspan) before re-plastering. Windows are likewise being upgraded and obviously the new external walls (where we are extending) will be insulated beyond current reg requirements. heating will be wet underfloor downstairs and oversized radiators upstairs. Both suppliers have been made aware of these plans by my architect. However, I don't know whether their calculations were based on the standard SAP model.

jeepjunkie: just to clarify (I am newbie!), are you saying that the Panasonic quote hugely overestimated my annual consumption?

Yes e.g. my Ecodan uses approx 6500 -7000 units per year in a 100 odd year old building with just CWI, loft insulation and some underfloor insulation. Clearly 35000 units is wrong. 11000 units on your other quote is likely to be more in line with expectations.

Cheers

Cardew

Northern_Boy wrote: »

One company have calculated an annual consumption of approx 35000kWH (with a peak heat demand of 13.6kWh), the other 11,000kWH. The former is recommending two Panasonic T-CAP 9kw pumps, the latter is recommending one Ecodan 8.5kw.

I've seen many glowing reviews of Ecodan (one or two less complimentary ones too) but there seems to be complete radio silence on the Panasonic Aquarea range. Panasonic claim a 4.74 COP at 7+ degrees and 2.4 COP at -15 which seems too good to be true. If it could get anywhere near that, I would impressed, mind.

..

Is gas available?

The Panasonic claim seems rather like the MPG claimed for my car at 30mph on a test rig.

Is your household prepared to understand and adapt to a home that does not
have the "instant" response of Gas fired central heating?

That is a most important factor that seems to be totally ignored by many people. If you are out at work etc during the day you must still keep your heat pump running.

zeupater

@Northern_Boy

Can you check the two quotations .... Is the one giving the annual energy consumption to achieve the heating requirement and the other giving the heat requirement ?? .... 35000/11000 could possibly suggest an annualised COP of 3.18 ....

HTH
Z

Northern_Boy_3

Jeepjunkie: And is that Ecodan your only source of heating? if so, that's impressive. For the record, I'll also be having a woodburning stove in the front lounge as a top up.

Cardew: Your comment about the MPG made me laugh and echoed my own suspicions. What surprises me is the sheer dearth of independent revoews of these products (although I understand that a follow up report from the EST's field testing is due in the coming months). I'm very surprised that Which? have not got involved in area that is woefully under-represented in terms of independent reviews.
Gas is available - I want to come off it - this was (and remains) a headline priority for me in taking on this project.
As for the difference in response with this type of heating, I am aware of this but, having just started a family (with my wife not planning to return to work anytime soon) this actually this suits our needs.