Public-private wage divide gets 50% wider

MissMoneypenny

carolt wrote: »

Have to agree with Sir Humphrey - an HEO is paid quite a bit more than a bank clerk, but that's justifiable. It's not an admin grade - HEO's are lower-middle managers, so you wouldn't expect them to be paid the same as a clerk. If that happened in the 1970's it's good that's changed - you get what you pay for.

It did happen in the 70s. My point being that they had low wages then but got a high pension.

Now civil servants want the high wages and that is fair enough, but......they still want to be paid the very generous pension that the low paid civil servants had as a reward for working for low wages. Yet civil servants don't generate any income for the country.

Councils too have given themselves massive pay rises over recent years and they too would like the old (low pay but good pensions) kept in place even though many are earning more than if they worked in the private sector. Councils too don't generate any wealth for the country.

Something has to go.

carolt

Andy_L wrote: »

The actual report
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=285&Pos=2&ColRank=2&Rank=384
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=15187

It's fairly useless for public vs private comparision because:
1. As Sir Humph said, most low paid public sector jobs have been contracted out.
2. Its based on PAYE employees so ignores the self employed who are exclusively private sector and, I would suspect, higher paid than the average.
3. It's an apples & oranges comparison as it bulks everyone into each sector eg
"The lowest paid of .. were .. ‘Sales occupations’" who are predominantly private sector whilst "he highest earnings.. were ‘Health professionals'" who are predominantly public sector employers. Instead of, eg, "State teachers vs Public school teachers"
4. It ignores non cash perks, eg company cars which are (almost?) exclusively a private sector thing

Yes, forgot that one.

Are bonuses counted?

No public sector employee I know of gets more than a grand or so bonus. Hardly comparable with the millions paid to bankers etc, or lesser amounts to lots of private sector jobs.

For example, all the public sector employees I know pay 100% for their own Christmas parties - usually the boss takes staff out, or they go Dutch.

Whilst the employees in the banks bailed out by or taken over by the taxpayer seemed to feel desperately hard done by if they had to make do with just £10-20/head. Many - the top echelon - spent far more. As evidenced by awful stories in the press a few weeks back.

Civil servants don't do that - they'd regard it as stealing from the public purse.

All the private sector companies I've ever worked for all provided Christmas parties.

Not a massive perk, I grant - but symptomatic of the lack of associated perks in the public sector.

Company car? Ha ha - good joke.

carolt

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

It did happen in the 70s. My point being that they had low wages then but got a high pension.

Now civil servants want the high wages and that is fair enough, but......they still want to be paid the very generous pension that the low paid civil servants had as a reward for working for low wages. Yet civil servants don't generate any income for the country.

Councils too have given themselves massive pay rises over recent years and they too would like the old (low pay but good pensions) kept in place even though many are earning more than if they worked in the private sector. Councils too don't generate any wealth for the country.

Something has to go.

I usually love your posts but couldn't let this one get away.

You seem to be arguing that civil servants or teachers who do vastly more important, responsible or skilled jobs than bank clerks should be paid the same. Why?

Secondly, you seem to be arguing that - and I do find this bit incredible - that 'civil servants don't generate any income for the country'.

What do you imagine civil servants do all day? The ones I know do a range of valuable tasks. For example, one I know is in charge of literacy. Is that unimportant? Does having a literate workforce not create wealth for the country? Or another one dealt with getting IT into schools. Would you like the next generation to grow up unable to use computers? What impact do you think that would have on the UK's long term profitability? Do you imagine that computers just appear in schools magically? Or that teachers just magically know what/how to teach on them?

Someone has to formulate and implement policy on this, or it doesn't happen.

Simple as.

Old_Slaphead

Andy_L wrote: »

The actual report
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=285&Pos=2&ColRank=2&Rank=384
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=15187

4. It ignores non cash perks, eg company cars which are (almost?) exclusively a private sector thing

It also ignores the provision of gold plated pensions which are almost exclusively a public sector thing and exacerbates the difference considerably.

FWIW provision of company cars is generally related to sales jobs and is not as prolific a perk as it used to be (thankks to the Governments agressive taxation thereof).

carolt

Old_Slaphead wrote: »

It also ignores the provision of gold plated pensions which are almost exclusively a public sector thing and exacerbates the difference considerably.

FWIW provision of company cars is generally related to sales jobs and is not as prolific a perk as it used to be (thankks to the Governments agressive taxation thereof).

See my earlier post on far inferior public sector salaries for EQUIVALENT jobs.

MissMoneypenny

carolt wrote: »

Whilst the employees in the banks bailed out by or taken over by the taxpayer seemed to feel desperately hard done by if they had to make do with just £10-20/head. Many - the top echelon - spent far more. As evidenced by awful stories in the press a few weeks back.

Civil servants don't do that - they'd regard it as stealing from the public purse.

If civil servants really think taking money from the public purse is stealing, then aren't they are calling themselves thieves? Civil servants take from the public purse all the time as they don't generate any money for the country.

The Roayal Bank of Scotland has taken more out of the public purse than they put in and NR too. Most other banks have made money for the country.

Sir_Humphrey

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

Now we have public sector workers having vastly increased wages (as i have shown above) but are still wanting a large pension. The pension has to go, the private sector can't afford that and their high wages.

Well, an Army Captain is paid over 30k (I have no problem with this). Perhaps military pensions should go too. If you you want public services, the renumeration has to at least be vaguely in line with market rates.

Sir_Humphrey

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

Civil servants take from the public purse all the time as they don't generate any money for the country.

Having a functioning government tends to lead to having a better economy. Look at Somalia if you disagree. Even by the sometimes low standard of MSE, that is a very stupid comment. I'm not going to mince my words any more.

Really2

Cannon_Fodder wrote: »

Out of 5.764 million Public Sector employees, 100,000 is hardly decimating their numbers, though.

I would expect deep cuts in that after the recession is over.

It is comon knowladge their is at least 1M dead wood in the public sector. it keeps the unenployment figures down just like all other national companies did in the past.
Labour love to hide true employment figures by doing this.

Old_Slaphead

carolt wrote: »

No public sector employee I know of gets more than a grand or so bonus. Hardly comparable with the millions paid to bankers etc, or lesser amounts to lots of private sector jobs.

Suggesting that the gross bonuses paid senior bankers is representitive of what goes on in the private sector is a bit like me suggesting that all public sector workers get lavish expenses just because a few MPs have their snouts in the trough.

Outside of banking, perks are few and far between for the average worker.

In over 40 years of work in private sector I've only had 1 or 2 paid for Xmas parties so it's by no means a universal benefit.
Public sector workers do get some perks too ie some get siubsidised canteens, some get reduced health club memberships, some ie police get cheaper meals at Subway, some get better deals on insurances etc, most get many more holidays, many get flexitime etc etc.