Citibank Euro Account

Porcupine

Good point. Shall we make some noise and complain?

Of course the danger is they'll suddenly decide to apply a £10 fee to UK BACS Euro payments too

flortje

Thanks for your replies!

I'm going to write a formal complaint first and see if I get any response. I suspect they won't be very keen on introducing charges for UK BACS payments!?

I will keep you posted for any developments.

Hazzanet

Porcupine wrote: »

Of course the danger is they'll suddenly decide to apply a £10 fee to UK BACS Euro payments too

The words "commercial suicide" come to mind.

Hazzanet

I sent the following letter to them on the 7th April and to date all I have received is a holding letter from them. It's not my best effort in terms of authoring, but gets the point across:

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Dear Sir or Madam[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Regulation (EC) No 2560/2001 & The Cross Border Payments in Euro Regulations 2003[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Having spoken at length with your overseas call centre I have been left in little doubt that my complaint has most likely neither been logged nor been taken seriously. Therefore I write with respect to the above items of European and English legislation in order to obtain a satisfactory response from you as to whether your current tariff of charges contravenes statute law. [/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]You will note from the enclosed Exhibit 1, printed from your website today, that you provide a method of electronic transfer in Euro via the Bankers Automated Credit System (BACS) where you do not make a charge. This system applies only to transfers within the United Kingdom.[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]In order to make a transfer in the Euro currency outside the United Kingdom, but within the EU/EEA, you provide SEPA payments, but are charging a fee of GBP 10.00 for each transfer.[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Articles 1, 2 and 3 of Regulation (EC) No 2560/2001 made into English Law via the Cross Border Payments in Euro Regulations 2003 (Exhibit 2) defines the scope of a domestic and cross border transfer in the Euro Currency and provides rules as to the charging structure a bank or financial institution may apply. [/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Exhibit 3 is a document downloaded from the Association for Payment Clearing Services (APACS) website, an organisation of which I note Citigroup is a member. You will see from the APACS guidance that the basic principles of Regulation (EC) No 2560/2001 state that there must be:[/FONT]

• “[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][…] non discrimination between corresponding domestic and cross-border payments in [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]euro[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif] [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]on the basis of price[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif].”[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Furthermore, the regulations apply to payments up to EUR 50,000.[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]You will see from the document that the APACS guidance in order to comply with Article 2 states that:[/FONT]

• “[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]The regulation defines payment instruments, [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]not the mechanism used for processing that payment[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]”[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]The APACS guidance also goes on to provide information as to how to conform to Article 3 of the regulation, the key points are:[/FONT]

• “[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]It is the [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]corresponding nature of the transaction[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif] and the type of payment that is the determining factor in the application of this Article a[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]nd not the system in which the payment(s) is being made[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif].”[/FONT]
• “[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Where no charge is applied domestically[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif] to a Euro transaction, [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]no charge should be applied to a corresponding cross-border transaction.[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif] If a charge is applied domestically, that charge, but no more than that charge for the corresponding payment, can be applied cross border.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Finally, APACS guidance in relation to Article 6 states that if a financial institution charges more for a cross border payment in Euro than a domestic payment in Euro, the customer may seek to recover the charge through the civil courts due to breach of statutory duty.[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]I am therefore of the opinion that whilst Citibank are providing domestic electronic funds transfers in the Euro currency at no charge to their customers, but at the same time only offer the SEPA transfer for cross-border transactions at a fee of GBP 10.00, the tariff breaches European and English statute law by not providing a corresponding cross-border payment option at no charge. [/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Whilst I appreciate that times are tough (see Exhibit 4), Citibank is required to operate within the law, and therefore I feel that they should amend their charging structure appropriately to meet European and UK statute requirements.[/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]I very much look forward to your comments.[/FONT]




[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Yours faithfully

[/FONT]

Porcupine

Well done with that. I spent a while today going round and round the website trying to find something giving a table of their fees, but couldn't find it. Eventually I gave up and sent a request via internet banking so I could have something in writing.

Looks like you're ahead of me... keep us posted as to how it goes. I suspect you may have to go to the Ombudsman, who isn't the sharpest tool in the box as far as complex banking questions. But the legislation does allow you to sue them

Hazzanet

Porcupine wrote: »

Well done with that. I spent a while today going round and round the website trying to find something giving a table of their fees, but couldn't find it. Eventually I gave up and sent a request via internet banking so I could have something in writing.

It's here... buried about 3 or four options in:

http://www.citibank.co.uk/personal/banking/info/tariffandinterest/charges.htm?merchant=citi

Porcupine

I'm not quite sure of this... they list UK SEPA transfers as £10, and outside UK SEPA as £10 also. BACS to the UK is Sterling only. It's only bill payment and standing orders in Euro that are free.

Without me wading through the APACS document, I'd assume that bill payment/standing orders come as a different transaction type (as they do in Faster Payments) and might be covered by different category in the payments directive.

Or have they changed the page since you looked at it?

Hazzanet

Porcupine wrote: »

I'm not quite sure of this... they list UK SEPA transfers as £10, and outside UK SEPA as £10 also. BACS to the UK is Sterling only. It's only bill payment and standing orders in Euro that are free.

Without me wading through the APACS document, I'd assume that bill payment/standing orders come as a different transaction type (as they do in Faster Payments) and might be covered by different category in the payments directive.

Or have they changed the page since you looked at it?

It states: "Bill payment and standing orders Euro and £ BACS

Free

Free

"

I read that as a Euro bill payment and/or standing order in Euro is free.

My opinion is as follows:

Article 2 defines a "cross border payment" as:

i) ‘cross-border credit transfers'
ii) ‘cross-border electronic payment transactions’
iii) ‘cross-border cheques’

So in essence, a way to transfer money from one account to another account via an automated/electronic system.

Article 2 also clearly states that "The Regulation defines payment instruments, not the mechanism used for processing that payment."

Article 3 states "It is the corresponding nature of the transaction and the type of payment that is the determining factor in the application of this Article and not the system in which the payment(s) is being made."

My opinion is thus that if they provide a way of electronically transmitting the Euro currency from one bank account to another domestically and don't make a charge, they are required to provide a similar service to transmit the Euro currency electronically cross-border at no charge.

Whether it's BACS, SEPA or whatever, there must be a similar payment system available cross-border at the same price (free) as the domestic system.

Porcupine

Ah, right. That makes sense. You might want to emphasise that if you have contact with them again. And also pick out what's mentioned in the compliance sections of the APACS document and that in the Regulation, which is here:

(I can't post links, so I'll have to mangle these)

eur-lex {dot} europa {dot} eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2001:344:0013:0016:EN:PDF

This proposal on upgrading the regulation implies that Direct Debits aren't currently covered, and there's a lack of bodies of redress. It sounds like they haven't been implemented too well...
ec {dot} europa {dot} eu/internal_market/payments/docs/reg-2001-2560/proposal_en.pdf

flortje

I agree, I don't think they can defend that a bill payment or a standing order is any different from other transfers.

I will try to write to them soon and point that out.