Unions protest because contractors are using foreign workers at power station.

louiser123

omelette451 wrote: »

Correct.

Very much incorrect. France is extremely welcoming of the law saying any EU citizen can do any job there. It's true that immigrants who don't speak French have a harder time than those here who don't speak English, but there's no suggestion of anyone trying to give priority to French citizens. I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea what fishing has to do with anything here.

Spain has no 'Spanish jobs for Spanish people' thing either. As with England there are a fair few people who say there should be, but the high number of Portuguese, Italian, Polish and Romanian people living and working there would seem to prove there's no discrimination in practice.

it really does not matter how many directives,laws,legislation ect are floating about regarding equality and discrimination, it has,is and always will occur.
is it not discrimination that an employer will hire a migrant worker who will work for minimum wage rather than the english worker who if hired would be on the same hrly rate as other english workers in that company ? and yes it does happen i know a company who hires both english and foreign nationals, the english are on a higher rate than the foreign workers for the same job, so they replace those english who leave for foreign workers, simply due to pay. and its not illegal because they are adhering to minimum wage laws, discrimination??? yes

louiser123

oh forgot to also mention,

would english people go to ukraine,poland,lithuania ect to work?? no because it does not work the other way round, no english person will go there to live in often meagre conditions and work for the money they pay, unfair ??yes.
because basically we can provide them with a better quality of life back home(thier country should be providing this)

and before anyone jumps on me, yes they should have a better quality of life everyone in those conditions should but not at the cost of making another country pay for it and that countrys nationals suffering because of it.

omelette451

louiser123 wrote: »

i agree there is a law "eu directive", but it wouldnt have to be unequality or discrimination if the hirers just simply chose the english worker.

But it's not as simple as that. If they 'just choose' the English worker simply because he is English it is, by definition, discrimination. Employers have a duty to select the best person who is legally allowed to do the job, and in any case why would they want to choose someone who may not necessarily be the best person for the job?

louiser123 wrote:

the english are on a higher rate than the foreign workers for the same job, so they replace those english who leave for foreign workers, simply due to pay. and its not illegal because they are adhering to minimum wage laws, discrimination??? yes

No, that is very much illegal. If it is indeed the same job, the Equal Pay Act states that all staff doing it must be paid the same rate. The staff at the company you are referring to would therefore be very much entitled to take up their claim of discrimination with the authorities, and I would encourage them to do so. I do not condone the use of illegal working practices anywhere; I simply support the right of those who are legally allowed to do a job to apply for and do it on the same terms as everyone else. In other words, for others to be treates as I would like to be treated myself.

leveller2911

omelette451 wrote: »

But it's not as simple as that. If they 'just choose' the English worker simply because he is English it is, by definition, discrimination. Employers have a duty to select the best person who is legally allowed to do the job, and in any case why would they want to choose someone who may not necessarily be the best person for the job?



No, that is very much illegal. If it is indeed the same job, the Equal Pay Act states that all staff doing it must be paid the same rate. The staff at the company you are referring to would therefore be very much entitled to take up their claim of discrimination with the authorities, and I would encourage them to do so. I do not condone the use of illegal working practices anywhere; I simply support the right of those who are legally allowed to do a job to apply for and do it on the same terms as everyone else. In other words, for others to be treates as I would like to be treated myself.

It doesn't work for the self employed, contractors can go as low as the minimum wage to pay, but when your self employed you have NO protection in that theres NO sick pay, NO paid holidays, if it rains you can be sent home, laid off with NO notice , thats why self employed were always paid more to offset that problem."Treat others as you would like to be treated" I agree whole heartedly, but reality is somewhat different.

omelette451

louiser123 wrote: »

would english people go to ukraine,poland,lithuania ect to work?? no because it does not work the other way round, no english person will go there to live in often meagre conditions and work for the money they pay, unfair ??yes.
because basically we can provide them with a better quality of life back home.

Actually, I would absolutely love to go and work in any of those countries. Have you been there yourself? If not, how do you know conditions are meagre? I've been to all three of the countries you mention, and while it's true many people live in less than appealing conditions, there are many who have a very nice set-up. Rather similar to here, in fact. The reason people come here to work is because that way they can move up the ladder quicker than they would otherwise be able to. Let's not forget either that the benefit is mutual... We may pay (via the EU) for their initial development, but who do you think benefits from that development? Apart from the people, of course (and isn't it our duty as fellow Europeans to help them in that respect anyway?), the development of Eastern Europe has benefited Western companies enormously. Tesco's recent success, for example, has largely come through opening stores in Poland and the Czech Republic, which has led to its taking on staff at its headquarters here, and enabled it to continue opening UK stores employing mostly British people. And it's well known that many companies have expanded in the last five years precisely because of the availability and success of migrant labour, employing people who pay more in tax (to fund our ever-increasing pool of cruise-going, costas-living old people) than they take out of the system. Then there's the general benefits to an enlightened global society from increased integration and the mobility that goes with it.

I could go on... but I won't. I will, however, point out that Ukraine is not in the EU, and as such its citizens have no right to live and work here. In fact they need a visa even to come here on holiday.

omelette451

leveller2911 wrote:

It doesn't work for the self employed, contractors can go as low as the minimum wage to pay, but when your self employed you have NO protection in that theres NO sick pay, NO paid holidays, if it rains you can be sent home, laid off with NO notice , thats why self employed were always paid more to offset that problem.

So the reason they get away with it is because it's not actually the same job with the same conditions? I understand it more now. But even if that's the case surely it doesn't change much? I mean, couldn't the British workers opt for lower wages and less form-filling by being employed directly, and the migrant workers choose to have higher wages but have to go through the faff and have the risks attached with being self-employed?

Incidentally, as for your facts about the French and fishing rights, I completely agree that it's unacceptable (except perhaps the point about the strikes - what would you have the authorities do to stop it?). Ironically, the expansion of the EU to include Eastern countries may yet prove to be the best way to deal with the probem (which involves other countries too, not just France), as the 'new' states have less patience for now-archaic agriculture policies and are already pressing quite hard for them to be changed.

leveller2911 wrote: »

I'm a self employed joiner, have a small workshop , you'll have to forgive my spelling etc as it doesn't play a large part in my job...........can you make a staircase?, queen anne window?,traditional georgian light? NO why not? guess it doesn't play a role in your job either..

You're right: I wouldn't even know what a queen anne window is. However, I don't make an effort to get my English right because it's useful for my job (as we've already established, I don't have one) but because I like to take pride in it as my native language.

Winadu

well, I guess I'm one of them. Come here few years ago, and it was not easy. Sharing a house, taking every overtime opportunity, counting every penny - It is all TRUE.
But I was able to save some money to start with . At the moment still here, same company only better position, driving 55 plate passat , bought a 2 bed semi with a 15% deposit, living with my girlfriend ONLY . It's possible, not only to emigrants-Anybody can do it. Living same life, paying same taxes, and actually most of us (migrant workers) is doing the same. Some exceptions of course.

Thanks for the tread .

Winadu

English is my second language> sorry for any mistakes

Dylanwing

One other point to bear in mind is that Gordon made an announcement of 'British jobs for British workers' a few weeks ago. It was a soundbite that got headlines and sounded good, but now it is coming back to bite him, with a vengeance.

omelette451

Winadu wrote: »

well, I guess I'm one of them. Come here few years ago, and it was not easy. Sharing a house, taking every overtime opportunity, counting every penny - It is all TRUE.
But I was able to save some money to start with . At the moment still here, same company only better position, driving 55 plate passat , bought a 2 bed semi with a 15% deposit, living with my girlfriend ONLY . It's possible, not only to emigrants-Anybody can do it. Living same life, paying same taxes, and actually most of us (migrant workers) is doing the same. Some exceptions of course.

Thanks for the tread .

You're just the sort of enterprising person this country needs, and I'm pleased it's working out well for you.

And welcome to MSE too.