Unions protest because contractors are using foreign workers at power station.

MrFonzerelli

Wookster wrote: »

Well that depends on what your definition of wealth is. If its prohibitively high house prices that make the UK uncompetitive on an international scale then dam right I think that needs to change. In countries like Germany, Holland, Belgium pay is significantly less, though oddly enough they have a much higher standard of living. Why do you think that is?

Because the German & Dutch government have a better socioeconomic model.

What's needed is 'change we can believe in'.

Lotus-eater

Wookster wrote: »

Well that depends on what your definition of wealth is. If its prohibitively high house prices that make the UK uncompetitive on an international scale then dam right I think that needs to change. In countries like Germany, Holland, Belgium pay is significantly less, though oddly enough they have a much higher standard of living. Why do you think that is?

Do they have a better std of living?

They certainly seem happier with life in general, house prices are higher than here in most of Holland, yet they all seem to have houses and seem happy. In all honesty most of them seem happier with less "stuff" than most people expect in this country, they pay higher taxes than we do, but most of them don't begrudge it.

Wookster

hethmar wrote: »

What I am saying is that it is a ridiculous situation where our own people are struggling to survive and we are allowing more people into the country. As Ive also said above, those who come to this country for a free ride should be sent packing immediately. Those who work hard and make a contribution to the community - fine, I have no problem with that.

There is something ridiculous about that but that is the world we live it - its a hyper-competitive environment and companies will go for the best and cheapest they can get. For you to say a Brit should get the job over a a Pole or an Italian or a German is (to my mind) like saying a White should get the job over an Indian, Latin American or Black, simply on the basis of ethnicity/ nationality. Its nonsense.

If you want the job be the best. Its as simple as that. It you want to charge more than the next guy, your service better be that much better.

Don't be looking to the government to do that for you. Its a cop out. They don't know their @rse from their face.

mewbie_2

dosh wrote: »

Comment from BBC News:
It's time to rebuild our Industrial base and put our country first.

And the only thing they don't say in their post is the rather important HOW. We need to trade to survive, and we need quality and competitive pricing to make that trade. I don't think letting the unions decide on pay rates and who is employed (ie. union member over non union member) is the way forward.

Here's my soundbite for the day...
I would gladly put my country first, but 'my country' would be based on merit not origin.

Dylanwing

Take the 'best man' or 'Globalisation' to the extreme, and you import all labour, using the cheapest person with the necessary skills, then do the same at management and executive level, then politicians, and finally out-source the out-sourcing to whoever can out-source labour the cheapest.

mewbie_2

Dylanwing wrote: »

Take the 'best man' or 'Globalisation' to the extreme, and you import all labour, using the cheapest person with the necessary skills, then do the same at management and executive level, then politicians, and finally out-source the out-sourcing to whoever can out-source labour the cheapest.

Well you do if you are saying there is nothing British workers can do as well or as cheap as anyone else in the world. On the other hand if we assume that some of those degrees that we churn out are actually worth the paper they're written on, and that the skills that once made this nation great (trading being foremost among them), and that we as a workforce are prepared to see what we can do for this country - then we might still have a hope.

But. If we admit we can't compete then we deserve to fail.

Lotus-eater

What we should do is import millions of Indians and get them to do everything, then we can sit at home not having to do a job.
Oh wait, we did that before and called it an Empire.

Besides they would have all the money then, so what would we live on? Oh wait......

Cleaver

dervish wrote: »

Your I'm al right jack approach to the economy and this country's problems is very arrogant and a bit holier thanthou.

The problems caused by immigration in this country are more than just simply stopping British people getting jobs - there are myriad social and cultural problems by having so many foreigners living over here. They are also putting a huge strain on the NHS while hardly any of them actually contribute to it.

As for your comment about bringing the British people back home... I dont think I have ever heard such a stupid comment regarding immigration.

Firstly, I would doubt that British people in foreign countries would cause any social upheaval as they are welcomed into most places as good decent peple.

Secondly, the countries that have British workers cannot afford to lose those skills. Its not the same as us getting rid of a few Polish brickies.

Thridly, most people in this country are sick of imigrants and want them out.

God, what a sickenly naive, generalistic and assumptive post that is. 'Most people' are not 'sick of imigrants [sic]'. Most people have stopped using race, nationality, gender and sexuality to judge people and now judge people on whether they are decent, honest, hard working, pleasant and all the other attributes that make people a credit to society (by the way, I'm not implying that you have been homophobic or sexist in that post. Just racist).

Sure, we have a minority of people, like you, who probably still judge people on the fact that they are from another country. But the vast majority, thankfully, judge the people that live next door to and work with by their personality, sense of decency, hard working character and the other characteristics that make someone a decent part of society. They don't give two hoots where they come from.

Obviously, if someone is a scrounger, who can't be arsed to work and is generally unpleasant to those in the society around them then they need sorting out and dealing with. But whether they are from Poland, Italy, England or Mars is irrelevant.

I'm about to turn my computer off and spend the next 29 hours watching endless football on the TV, but before I go I wanted to ask a quick question of those actually intelligently debating this fact on both sides rather than just firing thinly veiled racist comments across the bow:

Let's say you work for a medium sized British IT company who employ around 50 people (all British nationals - the roles would not attract work permit) and install IT products for large companies. Your job is to work in a team of 5 - 10 people on the customer site to install IT systems for the whole business. The bill for the company could be between 200k and a few million, depending on the project. The company is struggling in this down turn, is not getting business and you and a number of your workmates have been told that you may face redundancy unless the company gets a big contract soon. The company tenders for a job to install a IT system which will cover the payroll, supply chain, HR and sales software for a massive company and the bill will be way more than £3 million once all support, installation and implementatoin fees have been paid. It's enough to at least keep you all employed for the next 18 months. Unfortunately, the contract has been won at a Italian company, based in Italy. Would your first thought be, "hang on, we're taking jobs from Italians here. Let's have a word with our MD and let him know that we wouldn't be happy with Italians coming here to take our contracts and he can cancel the job."

Bascially, if you are one of the people on this thread saying that we should keep British jobs for British people, would you stick to your principles in this situation? If you were the MD would you cancel the contract? If you were an IT worker would you offer to take redundancy because you wouldn't want to break your ideology of keeping jobs in one country for the people of that country?

Right, I'm off for my 29 hours of football...

PasturesNew

It always seems to come back to fruit pickers.

So, these fruit pickers, my understanding of it is that the work is sudden/short-term. A field needs pickiing this week, another next week. Gangmasters bring in people and they transport them about where the work's needed - and provide them with a dormitory to sleep in. The jobs are for a few months and the workers just pick what they're told to.

A British person, living locally and signing on would have their benefits etc mucked about if they tried to do one short stint picking. They don't have the resources to line up a lot of different pickings over months to provide a summer's income.

How many young/single people here would answer an advert that said "come picking in the south of France, transport/housing provided"? Probably lots - and that's what the immigrants do.

How many people in the UK would see such an advert? All they see is one field of apples that want picking and the system would hinder them to go out and pick that one field... and they'd never see/find the advert for the next field of spuds/whatever.

If somebody in the UK advertised "fruit pickers wanted, we'll provide you with transport" it'd be a start. They're all over the place.

dervish

Cleaver wrote: »

God, what a sickenly naive, generalistic and assumptive post that is. 'Most people' are not 'sick of imigrants [sic]'. Most people have stopped using race, nationality, gender and sexuality to judge people and now judge people on whether they are decent, honest, hard working, pleasant and all the other attributes that make people a credit to society (by the way, I'm not implying that you have been homophobic or sexist in that post. Just racist).

Sure, we have a minority of people, like you, who probably still judge people on the fact that they are from another country. But the vast majority, thankfully, judge the people that live next door to and work with by their personality, sense of decency, hard working character and the other characteristics that make someone a decent part of society. They don't give two hoots where they come from.

Obviously, if someone is a scrounger, who can't be arsed to work and is generally unpleasant to those in the society around them then they need sorting out and dealing with. But whether they are from Poland, Italy, England or Mars is irrelevant.

I'm about to turn my computer off and spend the next 29 hours watching endless football on the TV, but before I go I wanted to ask a quick question of those actually intelligently debating this fact on both sides rather than just firing thinly veiled racist comments across the bow:

Let's say you work for a medium sized British IT company who employ around 50 people (all British nationals - the roles would not attract work permit) and install IT products for large companies. Your job is to work in a team of 5 - 10 people on the customer site to install IT systems for the whole business. The bill for the company could be between 200k and a few million, depending on the project. The company is struggling in this down turn, is not getting business and you and a number of your workmates have been told that you may face redundancy unless the company gets a big contract soon. The company tenders for a job to install a IT system which will cover the payroll, supply chain, HR and sales software for a massive company and the bill will be way more than £3 million once all support, installation and implementatoin fees have been paid. It's enough to at least keep you all employed for the next 18 months. Unfortunately, the contract has been won at a Italian company, based in Italy. Would your first thought be, "hang on, we're taking jobs from Italians here. Let's have a word with our MD and let him know that we wouldn't be happy with Italians coming here to take our contracts and he can cancel the job."

Bascially, if you are one of the people on this thread saying that we should keep British jobs for British people, would you stick to your principles in this situation? If you were the MD would you cancel the contract? If you were an IT worker would you offer to take redundancy because you wouldn't want to break your ideology of keeping jobs in one country for the people of that country?

Right, I'm off for my 29 hours of football...

Acuusing someone of being racist is both againstt the rules of this site and somewhat libellous... :rolleyes:

Secondly you may crow all you like with your Guardianista / leftie ideals about multiculturalism but you needt to realise that unchecked immigration has got the indigineous people of this country scared.

Scared for lots of reasons:

1) They are going to lose their jobs to foreigners that will work for pittances

2) Scared of not being able to mention race or foreigners with out being labelled racist.

3) Scared of going out to certain areas as they have become foreign ghettos. Even my local city centre is a disturbing place at night with what looks like dozens of East European men going around being abuseive to girls and women.

So your attitude is DAMN the British as long as we can spout our idealism. What a perfect world...