Unions protest because contractors are using foreign workers at power station.

mewbie_2

I'm confused. I thought everyone hated unions and foreigners. Now it seems we are starting to love unions. Is it my enemies enemy is my friend?

omelette451

mewbie wrote: »

I'm confused. I thought everyone hated unions and foreigners. Now it seems we are starting to love unions. Is it my enemies enemy is my friend?

It's worse than that... the government is joining in too. First we have GB's horrendously unwise words, now it refuses to condemn illegal wildcat strikes...

(The walk-outs were spontaneous and unofficial as no one was balloted for them, so technically speaking the unions can't even be involved in organising them... See the BBC q+a for more detail http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7860622.stm)

Walletwatch

Some really interesting views both for and against uncontrolled influx of migrant workers... too absorbing a discussion for me to keep out of..

so here goes.. my first instincts here are similar to what a couple of posters on this thread have no doubt, expressed much better than me... it is a GLOBAL economy, so the native workers will just have to deal with it. I come from India, and an interesting parallel can be drawn with the early 1990s, when India was forced to open up its markets and shed its protectionist agenda (and rightly so), as in my opinion, the ultimate winner was the Indian consumer, who got a wider choice of products to choose from. Some of the objections raised by domestic Indian firms at that stage were - "they are big players, with financial clout and economies of scale - they can easily undercut us...".

Most of these sounded like genuine reasons, but under international pressures revolving around capitalism, adjustments had to be made. Those who were savvy actually benefited (e.g. a Mr Chauhan selling his cola brand, Thums Up to Coke for what at that time was a whopping sum). Others just relied on their superior quality of products and still are a force to reckon with, e.g. Fab India, the traditional Indian cotton, khadi wear, etc.

Fast forward to current times, and its the same story the other way round - it was products then, and it is services now, but capitalism still rules - if companies get the same quality of work at a lower price, or a higher quality of work at the same price, they will take it on, no questions asked... it would actually be massively hypocritical of the US or European Governments if immigration and employment laws were to be made protectionist when it suits the citizens of developed countries, when pressure was actually applied on developing countries to shed protectionism and open up their markets...

The one thing that I think dilutes my argument above of course is this entire affair of bailing out profit oriented corporate firms with Government money, which goes against the very grain of capitalism. But then, these developed nations will need to come clean, put their hands up, and say that they no longer see capitalism as a way of functioning that they would consider practicable... but then, what is the way forward is anybody's guess !!!

Walletwatch

dervish wrote: »

As for your comment about bringing the British people back home... I dont think I have ever heard such a stupid comment regarding immigration.

Firstly, I would doubt that British people in foreign countries would cause any social upheaval as they are welcomed into most places as good decent peple.

Secondly, the countries that have British workers cannot afford to lose those skills. Its not the same as us getting rid of a few Polish brickies.

Thridly, most people in this country are sick of imigrants and want them out.

That is just enough for me (and I daresay a lot more on this forum) to put you on the Ignore list. You clearly are living in a cocoon of your own, possibly even having an 'Aryan' philosophy of your own with regard to the superiority of British workers over others. Not sure about most people in this country being sick of immigrants, but I am sure most people on this site are sick of chauvinist comments like yours and want you out.

Dylanwing

The only thing that surprises me is that people are surprised by these events. The warning signs have been there for a long time - There have been a number of reports suggesting that the UK working class has been affected by the large influx of workers, and is growing resentful, but of course, that is just dismissed as 'Daily Mail talk'. Let's not also forget that wilcat strikes like this are very rare in the UK nowadays.
Everybody can talk about EU Treaties and the like, and of course, criticise British workers, but what is the solution? The tension is there, and quoting EU Treaties and Globalisation platitudes ain't going to make it go away. If Brown/ Cameron don't deal with it, they will look to alternative politicians. And as I have said before, the perception in the UK is that it is not a level playing field in the EU, and that the UK is the least protective of it's own workers. And lets not forget, the Government can pump billions into Banks, and the Bankers (Perceived as the architects of the recession) don't seem to be sharing the pain. Maybe the Working Class might embrace Globalism a bit more if it didn't mean that they lose their jobs or take lower pay, whilst the perceived 'Fat Cats' get rich on the savings - Maybe not an accurate statement, but a very common perception around the UK.

Wookster

Good list - for my money, education and security (and costing) of power sources really should be a priority for this government.

Its very easy to blame foreigners as it means its all someone else's fault and you bear no responsibility but its not really a solution.

leveller2911

dinoyoung wrote: »

Solution. Some suggestions...

1) Educate population to a good international standard.
2) Increase efficiency; reduce government waste, stop funding overseas wars, insist on renegotiate of CAP.
3) Increase productivity; invest in improved and integrated transport infrastructure.
4) Reform the tax and benefit system to reduce no individuals falling into poverty trap.
5) Reduce reliance on imported energy, invest in renewable energy, insulate all homes, upgrade national grid.

Any more..?

I totally agree, but we have known all of the above for years and yet nothing has changed and I mean NOTHING. I worry that there will be civil unrest , maybe not as far as rebellion, alas until the scum in parliament are either ousted or "wake up and smell the coffee" it will be the same old story always one step behind the ball.:rolleyes:

leveller2911

omelette451 wrote: »

The minimum wage is not £3 p/h, it's £5.73. And yes, it should be higher to provide more of a 'living wage', but as previous posters have said, the actual salary in many cases is well above the minimum, and some people do manage a decent living from it. What I meant was that some people had developed unrealistic expectations that the high salaries they had come to expect in the 'boom' would continue forever. We've seen exactly the same thing with people who were convinced house prices were going to continue to rise, despite the fact that they had risen so fast it was bound to be unsustainable, and just as they have come tumbling down, so have artificially high wages.

So the natural progression of your view is that we will all be on a minimum wage and ALL getting handouts with WFT credits(who's going to pay all the tax?)..... so thats our country progressing into the 21st century,,,,,,,,, yep we are going backwards, give it 50 years and we will be getting charity handouts .Finally what in your opinion should be a reasonable living wage???? to be able to "live a decent living from"? .

harryhound

tesuhoha wrote: »

The problem with foreign workers coming here taking the low paid jobs is that the young working classes who should be doing these jobs are resting on their laurels claiming JSA which is such a small amount that they are unable to book a holiday, buy a car, rent or buy a house, buy possessions. So they are not spending money here in this country and an underclass of long term unemployed is being created. Do you really think that the answer is a massive underclass of people doing community service because they cannot find work? Incidentally, the unemployment figures are false. There are thousands who have been put on Micky Mouse courses to disguise the real unemployment figures.


This is why Britain is doing worse in the recession than any other country. Turkey is the next one due to join the EU and some say even more of them will come over here than the Polish.

. The Eastern European workers know about our soft benefits system and that is why they are able to come here so easily. That is why illegal immigrants bypass Germany and France to slip over the Channel.

They may be very nice people and they may be harder workers but as I said before they have created an enormous social problem in this country and they have detracted from its wealth.

1. The underclass of NEET's :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET
This is a sociological, rather than educational, problem - It is caused by "doting" but ineffectual parents in rich countries who have failed to educate their children that part of being an adult is "standing on your own feet". There is a case to be made for saying some of these parents would rather have dependent NEETs/KIPPERS than face up to their new empty nesting role and the need to pass the baton to the next generation.
Ideally children from the age of (say) 13 should be expected to play a role as productive members of the household and NOT be showered with consumer stuff. If the problem has been left to age 17/18 a back pack & one way air ticket to somewhere foreign (Australia?) should turn a child into a self reliant adult.
http://www.wordspy.com/words/kipper.asp

Turkey is the next one due to join the EU: I think this will go down in history as Europe's biggest missed opportunity.
Blocked by the Greeks, a population growth > 1% and sliding backwards from the days that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk decreed that head scarves must be worn (by prostitutes:D), towards a theocratic rule, I fear that the world's largest Muslim economy is becoming too big for the EU to absorb?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html

The Eastern European workers know about our soft benefits system and that is why they are able to come here so easily. That is why illegal immigrants bypass Germany and France to slip over the Channel.

I think the new EU citizens (and other illegal migrants) were attracted to the UK because:
1. We speak ENGLISH and the world's money speaks ENGLISH too.
The migrants, who already speak some Russian and Globish, know that converting their Globish to ENGLISH will improve their chances in a global economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globish
http://www.globish.com/AboutGlobish/tabid/56/language/en-US/Default.aspx
http://www.jpn-globish.com/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=120
Anyway ENGLAND could be a stepping stone to USA, where many of them dream of enjoying the "Hollywood" lifestyle.

2. We are already a polyglot community capable of rubbing along with all sorts of strange languages and customs (Estuary English anyone jewsnowotI meen?). We also have a sense of anarchic FREEDOM, probably not available in their homeland.

3. Unlike many of our "Schengen" neighbours, we did not impose restrictions on the citizens of the first Eastern European countries to join the EU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_(European_Union)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7153490.stm

4. The "bush telegraph" soon explained how the social security system worked in the UK and that the Police are really only expected to "keep the peace" (Stop fighting on the streets) not impose local customs with guns and batons.

So I don't think many came here for the free handouts and most want to climb the ladder, knowing they are free to "go home" when ever "home" becomes a more attractive option, economically or socially.
I am a little worried about the ghettos that some migrants have created; but even here there are huge differences between the first and third generation. The latter are largely "going native" even if they don't pass the "Tebbit cricket test"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket_test

They have detracted from its [UK's] wealth: They have definitely made UK Plc a richer place and probably increased the GDP per head, however the poorest in UK have suffered from competition for housing and jobs.

Harry

2) Increase efficiency; reduce government waste, stop funding overseas wars, insist on renegotiate of CAP.
Nu Labour has put 700,000 extra people on the public payroll - who are they going to vote for?
6) Build a fibre to the home network for BroadBand - Like Korea etc. ?

chopperharris

Personally I think its outrageous that they even HAD to do it , but is it good economics to pay BRITS more for exactly the same job?Taxes are overall higher in Portugal and Italy , so how can they undercut our workforce?Simple really , they get paid less for doing exactly the same job , if no one here is willing to work as cheaply as them thats their own choice.

Those that wont do the job for the cheapest price are using this as a political smokescreen.It was offered to tender fair and square.If brit companies could not compete on the same playing field then thats OUR own fault.... its not the imported labour which are on the edge of being hated for no real reason other than being foreign.....and I dont like where that could lead us as our european history has already shown.

Heres why we are all to blame , not them.Its simply OUR economics.

Did we buy british cars that were more expensive than those imported , no , then the car industry died.Where was the countries nationalism then?

Do we buy food from the uk in our supermarkets when its cheaper for supermarkets to buy them from abroad...we dont.Where is nationalism there.

Do our farmers employ brit pickers when no one wants to do the jobs , no.

Did we put our money into savings accounts in british banks when others were offering a better rate?We didnt , yet the taxpayer partially funded its repatriation.Where was the nationalism then?

Do we buy british made electronics over asian ones , no.Where is the nationalisation there?

Do we buy british made clothes/textiles , no.Where is the nationalism there?

Do we use the more expensive to refine North sea oil for petrol over imported oil , no.Wheres the nationalisation there.

My point people is this , we all choose the cheaper option , so why should it be any different for the company in the original post....higher costs mean higher prices.If we arent doing anything here just as cheaply as importing , then is it not conceited to expect them to pay more for labour also.

Our Nationalism people is easily swept aside for our "personal" financial gain or saving.....thats moneysavingexpert in action.You want nationalism , your in the wrong place , and era.