PCN - can I contest?

gwingwyn

Hi

I parked on a keep clear / zig zag outside a school by a sign saying:

No Stopping
Mon - Fri 8am - 9.30am
3pm - 4.30pm
on school entrance markings during term time

I assumed this meant I could park there as it was a Saturday at 5.30pm.
I always park there on weekday evenings, usually around 8pm so I assumed all was fine.
Got back to find a ticket on the windscreen.

Then I noticed that behind the zigzags / no stopping there is a single yellow line. I'd never even noticed it before.
I looked at the beginning of the street or near the other sign for something to indicate what the yelow line means and I couldn't find anything. Drury Lane is one way and doesn't have a sign at the entrance to indicate a restriction. Everywhere else on that street is either parking bays or double yellows.

Would I have a chance?
Would be great if someone a little more in the know could comment!
Thank you
Emma Jane

Neil_B

Wise to remove that image and take out the VRM details.

You only showed half of it anyway. WM reg 9 PCNs are substantially compliant barring one error on the back.

restriction you contravened is probably signposted via CPZ entry to zone signs - you need to check if it is a CPZ - high chance in WM I'm afraid.

- and yes, it is the single yellow they are saying you contravened.

gwingwyn

hi
thanks for the info

i assume CPZ stands for controlled parking zone
i thought they usually signposted these, like at the beginning of the street.
i couldn't find a sign saying it was a CPZ. i even went back up there yesterday to look for it. and i didn't see it on Aldwych and its definitely not at the start of Drury Lane

also i'm new so i don't really know the form in here
i just sort of copied an earlier member's post and included the PCN thing
so here's the back

gwingwyn

also i'm now liable for te whole darn fine as i didn't appeal within 14 days as i went straight off on holiday

i feel very depressed about this. is it worth going to court instead?

EJ

Neil_B

It doesn't go to Court.

You will receive a Notice to Owner in due course and you make 'formal representations' against that if you have a case. If they reject that then final recourse is at the Adjudicator which is nothing like a Court at all.

To find the CPZ entry signs you have to know where to look! First port of call for all PCNs is Council website. Maybe maps or street lists. I'm fairly sure that is a CPZ I'm afraid.

The legal error on the back is that they fail to say who will issue the Notice to Owner. It's a picky legal point. they are required to say 'the Enforcement Authority will issue

---

' - 'the Council' is acceptable. They say neither.

technically, if it fails to adhere to the mandatory requirements of the law then it is invalid and unenforceable - but on its own it is not a strong point.

king100

http://www.westminster.gov.uk/fmn/index3.cfm?FMNstreet=Drury%20Lane&LayerID=29


http://www3.westminster.gov.uk/maps/fmn-form.cfm?maplayers=29

Reggie_Rebel

I didn't think you could park on zig zags ever.

headpin

What I do not understand then is the relevance of the additional signage regarding the parking during school term time etc. If as suggested this is in a CPZ (and if it is Drury Lane it will almost certainly be in one) and there is already signage (and yellow lines) indicating that parking is not permitted at times greater and including those on the (shool term time) sign then what is the purpose of that sign? It is confusing, ambiguous and therefore highly likely unenforceable ast the parking Authority (in this case Westminster) would not be able to demonstarte which took precedent and why the motorist should not rely upon the actual sign (school term time) at the actual location the offence is alleged.

I would certainly appeal to the parking adjudicator on this one. Take photos of the signs and you will probably find the adjudicator will allow the appeal on the grounds of the Parking Authority having at the best confusing and at the worse misleading signage upon which you relied.

gwingwyn

hi

thanks for all your responses

@ king100 - thanks for the links

@ Reggie Rebel: you can't EVER stop / park on WHITE zigzags (e.g. the ones on the approach to zebra crossings and the like), but YELLOW zigzags outside schools are No Stopping markings and have accomnpanying signs showing the time of restrictions. usually certain times of day during term time.

@ Neil B - i suspect that looking on the internet is not the way I'm supposed to be notified that i am entering a CPZ! there must be some sort of legislation governing the council's duty to clearly signpost the start of the CPZ. I'd like to know if they have their signs up. there's some building works at the top of Drury Lane, maybe the removed the signs.

Also I will appeal against that contravention in conjunction with the appeal about the signage. Do you know is there a template for informing them that they have contravened these regs? I would like to state it properly!

@ Headpin - i agree. if it's already prevented from parking at any time, why do they need to put another signpost up saying you can't stop? I'll give it a go. Just got to get the wording correct now. I think tomorrow is the end of the 28 days so I can submit it to them over the internet at Westminster's parking fine's appeal website.

or do I wait for the Notice To Owner, blimey it's confusing!

Thanks!

Emma Jane

Neil_B

gwingwyn wrote: »

@ Neil B - i suspect that looking on the internet is not the way I'm supposed to be notified that i am entering a CPZ!

Don't be daft! I never suggested such a thing! Yes of course they have a duty to display the entry point signs. I posted a link on another thread to show an example. I'll find it for you when i find time later.
I suggested you look on the web - and someone has since done it for you it seems, to establish where the entry points are. Signs must be at every entry and generally on both sides of the road (depends on road width and if 'one-way', etc.). Yes it is not unusual for signs to be missing which is why i advised you to establish the boundaries!

Neil_B

headpin wrote: »

What I do not understand then is the relevance of the additional signage regarding the parking during school term time etc. If as suggested this is in a CPZ (and if it is Drury Lane it will almost certainly be in one) and there is already signage (and yellow lines) indicating that parking is not permitted at times greater and including those on the (shool term time) sign then what is the purpose of that sign? It is confusing, ambiguous and therefore highly likely unenforceable ast the parking Authority (in this case Westminster) would not be able to demonstarte which took precedent and why the motorist should not rely upon the actual sign (school term time) at the actual location the offence is alleged.

I see you are thinking but unfortunately wrong. Whilst i agree it could be misleading without repeating the general restriction at the same location (maybe there is a requirement for that?) it is correct on the face of it.

Signs within CPZs advise of additional restrictions - normally additional hours. In this case the additional restriction is very specific and valid 'no stopping', not 'no parking/waiting'. The CPZ signs will almost certainly detail 'no parking/waiting' restrictions so this additional sign is entirely necessary.