Unenforceable Credit Agreements

never-in-doubt

Cashpig74 wrote: »

Also, I got a reply from Barclaycard Data Protection Service Department - and their officer states after I request my CCA copy...:

"Unfortunately, we do not hold a copy of your application in our records."

I guess that's their way of saying that they dont have my agreement, right?

PLEASE GOD tell me it is.!

Lol

Yep so you now move to envoke the unenforceability aspect by demanding that they remove all data as they cannot prove you owe it. Basically that one has now gone - you don't owe anything, LEGALLY & MORALLY! See here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=19602031#post19602031

never-in-doubt

Cashpig74 wrote: »

Never in Doubt - that forging the signature business, would the lender have to show the actual original paperwork in court OR just a photocopy ? If they copied a signature onto a blank agreement, then it would not be a real ink signing and that would be clear to see - so what's the score there?

Does that happen often? Or is it a one off case?

Nope, people get confused with the term 'original copy'. This means a photocopy will suffice, obviously some people get a CCA and sign it then copy it and post the copy to the bank, or others that were signed back in 1985 would look like photocopies now, assuming the customer used black ink.

Basically they have to send you a copy, not necessarily the original version - otherwise you simply lose it and say 'now prove I owe you'? LOL

Yes, it is a big thing and they have been known to copy and paste, it is their way of getting out of you writing it off and they never go to court - they know you'll back down prior to taking it that far.

However know your facts, then you threaten them with ICO - not the law. The ICO can punish them harder by removing their licence!

There is no law as such, it is a civil matter between you and the lender.

Cashpig74

I see. Funny think actually, cos I phoned Barcalycard and spoke to an Indian guy, clearly an Indian call centre and asked for me agreement. I already had this letter from them that I mentioned just now.

He said "hold on 2 minutes" - can back to phone and then went again, came back again and said "yes we have your terms and conditions here".

I said "no, not terms and conditions, my actual signed agreement paperwork" - he said "yes, I have the application form I can send you a copy - I will send the letter out"....

Hmm, I was thinking *************** (guess why dont you), clearly he was full of shi*t and sending me a standard blank form.

I cannot image for the life of me why an Indian call centre assistant would be 3 feet away from MY agreement in a mud hut in Bengal when the DATA PROTECTION OFFICER failed to find it in 2 months!!


Oh sweet jesus..

Cashpig74

never-in-doubt wrote: »

Yep so you now move to envoke the unenforceability aspect by demanding that they remove all data as they cannot prove you owe it. Basically that one has now gone - you don't owe anything, LEGALLY & MORALLY! See here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=19602031#post19602031

You dont have to sell me on the moral issue. I patented it.:j

cheekymonkey20

How can u tell the changes to the cca's before and after.

I have just recieved a job description from an agency doing this job, it mentions that in April 2006 they changed to rules to come inforce july 2007... surely that would mean that anything before july 07 can be claimed.

It does say on the description that any debts taken up on or before july 2007 may be put forward, do you think its worth a try. start of july 2007 i took out a loan for £15200, and have a credit card taken out jan 2007 with £1000 on it.

Soooo... i send the letter off requesting signed cca form with a £1 check to both the loan n the credit card
hey have 12 working days plus 2 for posting and if they haven't provided a CCA by then they are in default so you can stop payments. You have to then allow them another 30 days to respond before you can report them to the relevant bodies. They can at any time produce a CCA which then means the debt becomes enforcable again, but with catalogues its very rare you will have actually signed a CCA
You need to send a £1 cheque/postal order with your CCA request and send it by recorded delivery so you have proof you posted it and they received it. Send a CCA request for each debt, it doesn't matter how big/small they are.

Now what happens if they send the signed cca but it was signed prior to the new rules coming into force. is there a date for when the new rules were put in place??? so that we know that anything prior to that date is unenforcable.

No, when the 12 +2 days are up, you can stop making payments (if you are making any) as they are in default. You then have to allow them another 30 calender days to still respond with CCA. After the 12+2+30 days are up, you can then send them the non-compliance letter which basically says you they have to stop chasing you, refund all monies you may have paid etc or you will report them to the OFT, TS,etc etc as the debt is un-enforcable.
But you have to allow the full 12+2+30 days to produce the "alleged" CCA.


So its clear in my mind

1. send off the letter with a quid cheque requesting the signed cca agreement
2. do not sign the letter, and give them 14 days from postage (recorded) to reply
3. cancel any payments to the creditor
4. if they do not reply leave it 30 days, then send the non compliance letter out.

sorry if im being thick, just want to do this properly

Cashpig74

Mate, the Act is clear, but you cannot cancel payments after 12 days and wave victory flag. Lenders are given some leinceny with this area - its not agood idea to pin your whole case on the fact that it was late in the post.

If there are loads of request for CCA form customers (as there are now) then it is reasonable to expect some delay in this - although they should ackonowldge your letter request as soon as poss...

Never stop payments - your rating will be affected, nothing has been proven at this point. The whole process is long, drawn out and very very complex - you make an error in your claims against them, and you risk being countersued - at best made to pay for their expenses. get it right from the outset.

April 07 is the date you are looking for. SOME agreement may be unenforceable.

The CCA's dod not change, the law governing them did - slightly. After april, a judge has the ablility to dictate the outcome. ALL agreement can be challenged from any date, all may be just as unenforceable in the eyes of the Act - but after April 07, a judge will decide the outcome. 99% of the time, he will rule in favour of the lender - why? Because it will be deemed a technicalility in error, rather than a misled or misguided fraudulent act to decieve the client. Only strong cases will survive.


GET A LAWYER involved!! Its the best way to secure your best chances I cannot stress that enough.!!!

emptysuit

Let us know how you get on with this Cashpig. This is the the big prize. Have heard that this issue may have to be heard by a judge who makes the decision regarding get repayments and interest reclaimed.

Also whilst I am fully up to speed on the credit card cca letters etc how does the process differ for pre 2006 loans and overdrafts (as opposed to credit cards) if at all?

johnllew

Cashpig74 wrote: »

When can a consumer claim compensation from the lender when claiming that the agreement is unenforceable..?

You mean renege on a debt and get compensation too?

dealer_wins

johnllew wrote: »

You mean renege on a debt and get compensation too?

He wants all that and the crown jewels personally delivered to her by the Queen to his caravan.

never-in-doubt

johnllew wrote: »

You mean renege on a debt and get compensation too?

In your very humble opinion naturally?