House prices and taxes

macaque_2

In some parts of the world, house prices are supressed by high property taxes. Last year, a staggering 1.2 million people in the UK recieved court summons for council tax arrears. Below the water of this ice berg, there are probably 10 million who find council tax very painful. Another 5 to10 million people probably don't care because they are partially or wholly exempt from council tax.

After all the problems of the poll tax, it suprises me that people are so tolerant of the relentless rise in the tax burden. Average Council tax is now more than 5% of average income (for old people, it can be over 20%). To make matters worse, the public are not enjoying the benefits of these higher taxes. Middle ranking adminstrators in local councils now pay themselves salaries of over £150k. More than 20 managers in the NHS are taking salaries over £200k. Millions of 'make busy' jobs have been created and public servants give themselves gold plated pensions that no private employee could hope for.

The UK economic model consists of a dwindling band of wealth creators serving a large and growing public sector elite. It is inevitable that the future of house prices will be heavily influenced by this trend. Runaway public spending has serious implications for the UK economy and demographics.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/07/localgovernment-localgovernment

Cleaver

macaque wrote: »

After all the problems of the poll tax, it suprises me that people are so tolerant of the relentless rise in the tax burden. Average Council tax is now more than 5% of average income (for old people, it can be over 20%). To make matters worse, the public are not enjoying the benefits of these higher taxes. Middle ranking adminstrators in local councils now pay themselves salaries of over £150k. More than 20 managers in the NHS are taking salaries over £200k. Millions of 'make busy' jobs have been created and public servants give themselves gold plated pensions that no private employee could hope for.

Have you got any evidence of a 'middle ranking administrator' job at a local council that pays £150k? Most Chief Exec jobs at local councils pay between £70k for smaller organisations and up to around £150k for the larger city councils.

And as for the 20 managers in the NHS earning over £200K, there will be many NHS organisations in the country with budgets of £250 million and upwards so I don't think paying the CEOs of these organisatons in the region of £200k is particulary out of line with the general job market.

I'm not arguing that there isn't wastage of money by local authorities, just addressing your specific figures.

macaque_2

Cleaver wrote: »

Have you got any evidence of a 'middle ranking administrator' job at a local council that pays £150k? Most Chief Exec jobs at local councils pay between £70k for smaller organisations and up to around £150k for the larger city councils.

And as for the 20 managers in the NHS earning over £200K, there will be many NHS organisations in the country with budgets of £250 million and upwards so I don't think paying the CEOs of these organisatons in the region of £200k is particulary out of line with the general job market.

I'm not arguing that there isn't wastage of money by local authorities, just addressing your specific figures.

Some argue that public servant's salaries should be linked to the size of the budgets they handle. In the safe, non-competetive world of public sector employment, this is not only unjustified but is positively dangerous. It simply creates incentive for public servants to build empires and waste money.

In answer to your specific question, we are early in the year so the heavy recruiting has not yet started. Nevertheless, here are some examples for you:



Chief Executive

(note, this is a borough council)

• Employer: BEDFORD BOROUGH COUNCIL
• Posted: 06 Jan 2009
• Contact: Terry McDougall
• Location: Bedford
• Industry:
  • Government - Local government
  • Senior executive - Government
• Contract: Permanent
• Hours: Full Time
• Salary: £160k

Strategic Director of Neighbourhood Services

• Employer: MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL
• Posted: 06 Jan 2009
• Contact: Martin Tucker
• Location: Manchester
• Industry:
  • Environment - General
  • Government - Local government
  • Senior executive - Government
  • Social care - General
• Contract: Permanent
• Hours: Full Time
• Salary: circa £120,000

Executive Director for Resources

• Employer: LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL
• Posted: 06 Jan 2009
• Reference: 8149
• Contact: Vanessa Ford
• Location: Lancashire
• Industry:
  • Government - Local government
  • Senior executive - Government
• Contract: Permanent
• Hours: Full Time
• Salary: Circa £135k

Deputy Chief Executive (Performance)

• Employer: MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL
• Posted: 16 Dec 2008
• Reference: SRS/DCEX
• Contact: Martin Tucker
• Location: Manchester
• Industry:
  • Government - Local government
  • Senior executive - Government
• Contract: Permanent
• Hours: Full Time
• Salary: circa £130,000

Cleaver

I wouldn't class any of those as 'middle ranking administrator' jobs, they are senior director level jobs.

I ask our of curiousity rather than in vehement disagreement with you but, just as example, how would you structure and pay the senior management team of a council such as Manchester, Bristol, Birmingham etc.? What would you pay the Directors and Chief Exec? Or would you not have a senior team?

Cleaver

By the way, I also don't believe that public sector salaries should be linked directly to a budget size. But if you wanted me to run a large hospital with a budget of £200 million, a workforce of 10,000+ and I had overall responsibility for the healthcare of houndreds of thousands of the general public I'd want a pretty decent salary.

vivatifosi

macaque wrote: »

After all the problems of the poll tax, it suprises me that people are so tolerant of the relentless rise in the tax burden. Average Council tax is now more than 5% of average income (for old people, it can be over 20%).

A further issue is that the burden is not necessarily equally distributed, see:

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/frs/2003_04/tables/pdf/2_10.pdf

Percentage of households in Band A (ie with the lowest possible bill for their area):

North East 59%
North West/Merseyside 42%
Yorkshire and Humber 46%
East Midlands 40%
West Midlands 29%
Eastern 14%
London 4%
South East 8%
South West 17%

Wales 21%
Scotland 26%
(different systems)

However councils charging higher bills are not all in the North, so the burden can again be disproportionate:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1899390/Ten-most-expensive-areas-for-council-tax.html

Cannon_Fodder

How can any Council official justify being on more than the Prime Minister?

http://tpa.typepad.com/media/2008/03/daily-telegr-13.html says there were 14...


"Top of the list is Peter Gould, the outgoing chief executive of Northamptonshire, who was paid £215,000."
"However, since the list was compiled, Andrea Hill has been hired to run Suffolk county council for £220,000."


"132 officials were paid more than a Cabinet minister's salary of £137,579" - Defence of the Realm is less important than council services?

"18 staff at Westminster council were paid more than £100,000, including the "director of parking services". Birmingham, the country's biggest local authority, had seven."



As for "the problems of the poll tax" - the apparent 'inequities' were manipulated by a left-wing agenda involving rent-a-mob. As they got their way, they do not wish to create similar "protests" over current day inequities as it would cause embarassment to their paymasters/gong-bestowers/jobs-for-life-endowers etc.

Cleaver

Director of Parking Services!

Do you think you have to do a reverse park as a practical test at the interview?

carolt

Cannon_Fodder wrote: »

How can any Council official justify being on more than the Prime Minister?

But how can you justify any private individual earning more than the Prime Minister either? By which I mean salaried executive jobs in listed companies etc, not wealth creators eg entrepeneurs, who actually created something afresh.

Why are you wasting your time pontificating against overpaid parking attendants, when people who ruined our banks and took our economy with them, and are now paid out of the public purse every bit as much as those same so-called 'middle ranking administrators' (which would certainly not be my definition of a Chief Executive of a Council!), take home millions, ie easily 10 or 20 or more times the pay of our Prime Minister!

And do these 'administrators' who annoy you so get the chance to claim the enormous expenses, amounting to several times their annual salaries, that all MP's, let alone the PM, does? Do they get given free homes (several, palatial) as the PM does? Does their pension accrue at the same rate? Do they get the chance to make millions in directorships/book deals/lecture tours when they retire?

No.

What a load of nonsense.

Cleaver

carolt wrote: »

But how can you justify any private individual earning more than the Prime Minister either? By which I mean salaried executive jobs in listed companies etc, not wealth creators eg entrepeneurs, who actually created something afresh.

Why are you wasting your time pontificating against overpaid parking attendants, when people who ruined our banks and took our economy with them, and are now paid out of the public purse every bit as much as those same so-called 'middle ranking administrators' (which would certainly not be my definition of a Chief Executive of a Council!), take home millions, ie easily 10 or 20 or more times the pay of our Prime Minister!

And do these 'administrators' who annoy you so get the chance to claim the enormous expenses, amounting to several times their annual salaries, that all MP's, let alone the PM, does? Do they get given free homes (several, palatial) as the PM does? Does their pension accrue at the same rate? Do they get the chance to make millions in directorships/book deals/lecture tours when they retire?

No.

What a load of nonsense.

What a great post.

I'm still interested to hear how people would structure a large city council if you aren't paying a senior board competitive money?

carolt

More than that, the temptation to put fingers in the till when dealing with those huge sums if paid a pittance would be overwhelming.

Better to pay them in line with equivalent jobs in the private sector - or you get the quality of staff you pay for. :eek: