Is CSA1 an exact science? (if so where can I get a copy of the formula) -merged-

mothballed

Sensemaya wrote: »

You said you are / were a bus driver.

I'm totally confused with all this information.

Its was all done through the business. Since you ask for the bigger picture - here it is:

I was originally a farmer and lived om my own freehold farm (commercial mortgage) on it with my (now ex) wife and children. My ex decided to end our relationship for another man on the internet and when I was unwilling to vacate the farmhouse (which I built a few years before we met) she obtained an occupation in my absence and without my foreknowledge (an ex-parte proceeding) order and I was arrested by police for sexually abusing my children (I was later acquitted in the crim courts). The order was that I vacate the house and do not enter a radial distance within it or make direct or indirect contact with ex wife or children. This meant I was bound over not to enter the grounds of my own farm!

As this took place in the middle of the wheat harvest I was unable to find anyone qualified to take over the farm at short notice, they had their own farms to tend. I attempted unsuccessfully to overturn the court order because of a policy the children come first and should remain at the house and the order stands, I was constantly interrupted by the judge and not allowed to freely speak, but I was later able to acquire the court transcripts. My request I move into on on-site employee accommodation was even rejected because they are too near the principle home. I called administrators because I could not fulfil my customers order for wheat and potato resulting in penalties, and I needed to pay and discharge my 21 staff including 7 fulltime 4 of whom lived on site, and arrange for my livestock to be auctioned. Administrators later needed to evict PWC into social housing because utilities to the farm were being shut down.

During my exclusion, the farm was looted by gypsies, vehicles, diesel, tractors and drawbar machinery were stolen. All-night raves trashed the buildings, and a 2005 MF Combine Harvester as torched. The only item recovered by police was a Scania LGV class-1 articulated unit. It was found with new number-plates and repainted in new livery working in a travelling funfair. Its low-loader trailer was never recovered. The business was a total writeoff. Previously I had attained profits year on year in increasingly difficult circumstances and I had and the best workforce - which was envy of local farmers - which took me years to build.

I passed the case to my business insurer who appointed lawyers

They could not claim damages from my ex because she has no assets. They are claiming negligence from the Ministry of Justice because we believe a court naively issued an occupation order and an injunction sending me off the farm without considering the fact it is a working farm in the middle of harvest, and the court was unwilling to consider a representation from me to allow me to return to the farm resulting in total loss of the business.

Getting interim employment as a bus driver was only intended it a stopgap until this is cleared up. It turned out to be a BIG mistake - it brought on the CSA and all the misery with it - and probably another round of court cases.

Sensemaya

mothballed

Thank you very much for explaining the wider picture.

You have been through a very tough time. You must be heart broken and very angry about your business. I would be.

mothballed

I think I am over the worst of it now.

It took me a while to downgrade from £71K + Range Rover and 5 bed detach house to signing on the dole living in a bedsit and cant afford a basic pair of shoes for work.

It really amazes me the CSA goes this length to cause so much trouble over 40-quid.

kelloggs36

Moth, when you appealled in the first place back in 2007 what exactly did you do? Did you say that you didn't agree with it and wanted them to look at it again? What evidence did you send in in respect of the hours worked? I'm asking because whilst you say that you requested a new assessment after the Summer when you worked 75 hrs per week, it was refused. Why was it refused? They may have refused to REVISE the assessment (ie back date a new figure) but they should have done a SUPERSESSION which is a change of circumstances ie new assessment from a new date. That would have sorted out the issue regarding the overtime. Did you send them the relevant wageslips (although from memory, I have a feeling that you sent the wrong ones and then they refused to do it - in which case even newer ones would have resulted in a newer figure but again not backdated to either the first request or the second). If you didn't chase up, then that won't be down to the CSA, but if you sent in the info, then they can't refuse to do it.

As for the non-dependent issue. They are saying that you are non-dependent, and you are arguing against this - fair enough - but what evidence do you have (or have you sent other than the rental agreement) that this is the case? You say he lives in Swizerland, all you need to do is to provide the address of your uncle and ask them to write and confirm the date he vacated the property that you are renting. If you don't provide evidence, then they can only make decisions based on what they have. This is why you have the right to appeal if you act on it properly.

mothballed

kelloggs36 wrote: »

Moth, when you appealled in the first place back in 2007 what exactly did you do? Did you say that you didn't agree with it and wanted them to look at it again? What evidence did you send in in respect of the hours worked? I'm asking because whilst you say that you requested a new assessment after the Summer when you worked 75 hrs per week, it was refused. Why was it refused?

It was payslips as ordered. I wish I knew why it was refused, but the word refused is not found on any papwework. I think their policy of dealing by telephone was a mistake.

kelloggs36 wrote: »

They may have refused to REVISE the assessment (ie back date a new figure) but they should have done a SUPERSESSION which is a change of circumstances ie new assessment from a new date.

That could well be the case.

kelloggs36 wrote: »

That would have sorted out the issue regarding the overtime. Did you send them the relevant wageslips (although from memory, I have a feeling that you sent the wrong ones and then they refused to do it - in which case even newer ones would have resulted in a newer figure but again not backdated to either the first request or the second). If you didn't chase up, then that won't be down to the CSA, but if you sent in the info, then they can't refuse to do it.

Im not thick or anything but, I think the CSA has assumed I fully versed in CSA law and protocol. And its that assumption that resulted in the case going bent. When i provide evidence as ordered then I would expect them to action it objectively and professionally. I didnt know it was down to me to "chase up" the CSA when it doesnt follow its own legislation.

kelloggs36 wrote: »

You say he lives in Swizerland, all you need to do is to provide the address of your uncle and ask them to write and confirm the date he vacated the property that you are renting.

The address is on the tenancy agreement...

mothballed

kelloggs36 wrote: »

If you didn't chase up, then that won't be down to the CSA, but if you sent in the info, then they can't refuse to do it.

Ive had another look at the file and the telephone answermachine tapes again. The CSA did ask for most recent payslips which I sent. The only other communication I have is my letter protesting at a disproportionately high assessment in relation to my actual earnings, and a further letter questioning the grounds why I have been deprived of my own earnings to meet my own rent obligations. My letters have always been characteristically brief and to the point. I cannot find any evidence of an appeal form being sent or a reference to having completing such a document. I did find telephone call replies and further automaton CSA documents. You are indeed correct, interestingly one of them does mention about making an appeal but the date on that letter is more than 30 days from the timestamp of the telephone call asking for a correction so it was already out of time in any event.

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but I think we are debating a hypohetical argument to a lost-cause. The CSA's time limit has already expired and the appeal will be dismissed. (unless of course, the CSA does a U-turn and contradicts its own legislation).

kelloggs36 wrote: »

If you didn't chase up, then that won't be down to the CSA

I admit I am not very efficient at chasing other people to do their job. I always hired farm-workers on reliability and fired them if they were not. When I receive DEO's from the CSA on farm employees wages, I had a bookkeeper (under supervision of an accountant) who did my PAYE account with Inland Revenue and I never needed to chase anybody. If one of my guys came to me with financial hardship, I paid them in kind, give the use of a vehicle, a tenancy on a labourers cottage on the farm, or just bung him a tenner down the pub, it was never a big deal.

I think we should collate the evidence we now have and move on, get the appeal forms completed. I dont think squabbling over 60-quid here-or-there will accomplish anything.

I now welcome comments on my answers (and amendment) on the appeal forms.

kelloggs36

First of all I would make a formal complaint and get written reasons for their refusal to revise or supercede the assessments. If you sent in the correct payslips then I can't see why they refused, unless you requested the change and you didn't send them within the timescales they laid down.

Once you have written confirmation of their reasons for refusal, you will have a better ground perhaps for your appeal.

Again, I can't see why they have stated you are a non-dependent, but not having seen the documents my word can't mean much!! On the face of it, it would appear that you aren't a non-dependent as he doesn't live in the property, and again you need to ask for written reasons for their decision.

mothballed

kelloggs36 wrote: »

First of all I would make a formal complaint and get written reasons for their refusal to revise or supercede the assessments.

Is this a freestyle letter of complaint, or do I ask for another form to be completed in addition to the above-mentioned appeal forms?

kelloggs36 wrote: »

If you sent in the correct payslips then I can't see why they refused, unless you requested the change and you didn't send them within the timescales they laid down.

Once you have written confirmation of their reasons for refusal, you will have a better ground perhaps for your appeal.

I think we are now on NACSA's turf.

kelloggs36 wrote: »

Again, I can't see why they have stated you are a non-dependent, but not having seen the documents my word can't mean much!! On the face of it, it would appear that you aren't a non-dependent as he doesn't live in the property, and again you need to ask for written reasons for their decision.

I have never shared any house with my uncle. Its a house-conversion that used to be his principle home in the UK. There is a CSA officers comment over the telephone saying we have information that are at least five people occupying the address. I asked what information they were relaying on, and their reply was its its a classified government source. I later found out it was Experien CitizenView - and it does indeed show all the previous roommates who've rented a room. It would seem the CSA treated Exeperien CitizenView information to be a fact even thought some of the information was several years out of date.

kelloggs36

Letter of complaints addressed to the complaints officer. Have you tried NACSA - they are excellent!!

Bedsits are allowed as housing costs -

When is a parent treated as responsible for housing costs?

5165 The DM should treat the parent as being responsible for housing costs where one of the following applies1:

1. Because another person is liable but is not meeting the costs, the parent has to meet them in order to continue living in the home and either

1.1. the parent was formerly the partner of the person liable for the costs or
1.2. it is reasonable to treat the parent as liable for the costs2.

EXAMPLE
Maureen lives in her father's house. Her father took out a mortgage to buy the house but is now in prison. In order to stay in the house, Maureen pays the mortgage repayments and all the other costs associated with that house.

2. The parent pays a share of the housing costs with other members of the same household who are not close relatives (5175) of the parent or partner and

2.1.the parent or another member of the household is responsible for the housing costs in the circumstances in 5165 1.1. and 1.2. or
2.2.has a comparable responsibility for housing costs3 and
2.3. it is reasonable in the circumstances to treat the parent as sharing responsibility4.

1 Sch 3, para 4( 1)( b); 2 Sch 3, para 4( 2)( a); 3 Sch 3, para 4( 2)( b);
4 Sch 3, para 4( 2)( b)

EXAMPLE
Peter lives in a house which he shares with 4 other people. The rent book is in the name of one of the other sharers. The rent is £300 per week and they each pay £60. It would be reasonable to treat Peter as responsible for a rent of £60 a week.

Who is a close relative?

5175 A "close relative" for the purposes of Housing Costs is defined as any of the following:

1. Parent.
2. Parent- in- law.
3. Son.
4. Son- in- law.
5. Daughter.
6. Daughter- in- law.
7. Step- parent.
8. Stepson.
9. Stepdaughter.
10.Brother.
11.Sister.
12.The partner or spouse of any of the above1.

1 CS (MASC) Regs, Sch 3, para 7

So I can't see why the fact that the house belongs to your uncle and he doesn't live there, makes you a non-dependent. I think you certainly have a case, BUT it is whether the appeal process will allow you to get to a hearing about it.

pd001

mothballed wrote: »

It was payslips as ordered. I wish I knew why it was refused, but the word refused is not found on any papwework. I think their policy of dealing by telephone was a mistake.

I have made many mistakes in my life but I am proud to say I have never made that one.
I will not deal with the csa over the telephone, never have.... never will.
I have a massive paper file though