Clown will sell anything to anybody!

dopester

Cat695 wrote: »

Thats Just it tho Gen...I think you'll find that actually this is one of their stongest attributes (if thats the right word) is they learn from other people and just fine tune it.....they are extremely adaptable...which IMHO why they are the best.

I'm sure they are brilliant. The book Bravo-Two-Zero showed how amazing and organised they were.

Or when they went in for the IRA in Gibraltar.. ending up having to chase them and shoot them. If I could be bothered I'd find the exact photos.. but real clever shooting at them infront of this petrol station. I've seen other photos showing the filling tanks riddled with bullets.

I'm not saying the SAS are not capable. They probably are very much so. I'm just suggesting it might be too easy to buy in to the belief that we are always the "best" - and the enemy is always inferior.

I can tell you this. The Russians have learnt a thing or two from fighting off invasions themselves over the centuries. Certainly the spetsnaz martial-art "systema" integrates the best of what they've learned from other cultures.

Cat695

dopester wrote: »

I'm sure they are brilliant. The book Bravo-Two-Zero showed how amazing and organised they were. thats ONE mission out of 300 members of the SAS's actions out in the Gulf I never said they were perfect

Or when they went in for the IRA in Gibraltar.. ending up having to chase them and shoot them. If I could be bothered I'd find the exact photos.. but real clever shooting at them infront of this petrol station. I've seen other photos showing the filling tanks riddled with bullets. Ok there is very little petrol in a Pump its held in the tanks underground...and bullets don't ignite petrol (unless they are tracer rounds which would not be used in this type of engagement) 0 civilian/SAS casuaties...IRA 3 dead...a perfect operation in my book

I'm not saying the SAS are not capable. They probably are very much so. I'm just suggesting it might be too easy to buy in to the belief that we are always the "best" - and the enemy is always inferior. If you believe the enemy is superior then he already has an advantage over you, knowing the enemy is good is one thing knowing you are better is another.

I can tell you this. The Russians have learnt a thing or two from being invaded themselves over the centuries. Certainly the spetsnaz martial-art "systema" integrates the best of what they've learned from other cultures.Martial arts is useless against firearms no matter how many times you've seen it in the movies and I think we've learnt a thing or two of fighting in various campaigns all over the world including NI hence why we don't lose as half as many soldiers in Iraq/Afghan compared to the US forces

You keep going on about martial arts please show me when martial arts was used in war?? and the SAS have been around since the 40's the spetsnaz around since the 70's

Do you not think the SAS have any martial arts training to??? or maybe breaking wooden boards is not on top of their list of things to do

bubblesmoney

Cat695 wrote: »

The SAS actually train/advise the US Seals/Green Beret and most other NATO countries...and for you Generali the Australian SAS (which I've worked with)

loads of countries have reciprocal training arrangements. each country will have some advantages in training scenarios. for example in desert warfare nations with deserts will have an acclamatisation advantage. same for high altitude warfare people who have lived for years in mountain areas will be better acclamatised. curious isnt it that the glory for climbing everest etc goes to a "mountaineer" but the sherpa who climbs by his side and carries the luggage as well of the mountaineer gets lesser mention for climbing the same mountain.
isnt it curious the uk still has got a gorkhas unit in the army and still recruits in nepal. isnt that because those people are acclamatised for more hardship etc.

the usa specialist forces are not just trained by the SAS, they are also trained by pakistan military in high altitude warfare. the worlds highest battlefield is on the indo-pak border with 30% of the higher peaks in pakistan and india manning the other two thirds. as faras i know the usa special forces wanted to train with indian high altitude warfare training as well but this was refused by the indians a few years ago. dont know if they reconsidered later. this doesnt mean x was better than y. but that each country will have some advantages in many fields.
just to recap - many countries armed forces have reciprocal training arragements with each other.

Generali

Cat695 wrote: »

Thats Just it tho Gen...I think you'll find that actually this is one of their stongest attributes (if thats the right word) is they learn from other people/SF/units and just fine tune it.....they are extremely adaptable...which IMHO why they are the best.

And General H. Norman Schwarzkopf (Commander coalition forces) said himself in the first Gulf war that the SAS were the only quailfied SF to do the job they did.....Delta never got a look

And no offence taken ;-)

Very interesting, thank you.

The offence thing is due to me having had a few glasses of wine and being prone to misunderestermaterficating (as GWBush would doubtless say) the situation.

Cat695

Generali wrote: »

Very interesting, thank you.

The offence thing is due to me having had a few glasses of wine and being prone to misunderestermaterficating (as GWBush would doubtless say) the situation.

I like that word mind if i steal it

beaujolais-nouveau

Cat695 wrote: »

I think you've read to many Tom Clancy books

I have not read any Tom Clancy books - I have never heard of him.

I think that you are not factoring in just how poor and weak the UK and several other Western countries are going to be in a couple of years' time. Poor means bridges and roads and railways not maintained, so when they break up or fall down or are blown up by terrorists they stay broken; vehicles not repaired or replaced, so when they have to come off the road they stay off the road, so that could mean fields not ploughed or fertilised and goods not distributed; telecommunications not upgraded - I don't know if you are aware but "obsolence" in the world of web servers and so on is only a few months, and all the kit and software are very expensive.

Think of Lebanon in the summer of 2006 - Israel blew up bridges and roads, hospitals and residential areas, and at least one oil pumping station - and knocked Lebanon's economy back 50 years. All to try to rescue two soldiers (and failed to do so). Completely without reprisals being taken by anyone in the international community. Russia could do that to the UK, and would do it if it made it harder for the US to move its personnel and stuff around.

dopester

Cat695 wrote: »

You keep going on about martial arts please show me when martial arts was used in war?? and the SAS have been around since the 40's the spetsnaz around since the 70's

Do you not think the SAS have any martial arts training to??? or maybe breaking wooden boards is not on top of their list of things to do

Russia's elite soldiers have been around in one form or another for centuries. They have much more about them than martial-arts training.. and karate style imagery of breaking wooden-boards is exactly not what they are about.

Going to war is like walking off a very long cliff: at any point you can decide to turn around and walk the other way; you can stop walking altogether, you can decide at the edge not to jump afterall, and once you've jumped you can usually grab a root or a ledge and pull yourself back up.

It is only by deciding again and again with each footstep that you will not choose another course of action that a full-scale disaster happens. It doesn't happen by chance.

OK Napoleon. Go invade military-weak Russia then.

Cat695

beaujolais-nouveau wrote: »

I have not read any Tom Clancy books - I have never heard of him.

I think that you are not factoring in just how poor and weak the UK and several other Western countries are going to be in a couple of years' time. Poor means bridges and roads and railways not maintained, so when they break up or fall down or are blown up by terrorists they stay broken; vehicles not repaired or replaced, so when they have to come off the road they stay off the road, so that could mean fields not ploughed or fertilised and goods not distributed; telecommunications not upgraded - I don't know if you are aware but "obsolence" in the world of web servers and so on is only a few months, and all the kit and software are very expensive.

Think of Lebanon in the summer of 2006 - Israel blew up bridges and roads, hospitals and residential areas, and at least one oil pumping station - and knocked Lebanon's economy back 50 years. All to try to rescue two soldiers (and failed to do so). Completely without reprisals being taken by anyone in the international community. Russia could do that to the UK, and would do it if it made it harder for the US to move its personnel and stuff around.

One thing this govement will not spare cash on is counter terrorism.....we will always defend our home ground no matter how bad things will get.....just as we did in WW2

dopester

Cat695 wrote: »

One thing this govement will not spare cash on is counter terrorism.....we will always defend our home ground no matter how bad things will get.....just as we did in WW2

So will Russia. One of my family got caught out as a spy and served time in prison in Russia. Now has a fairly important position in the western military.

Cat695

dopester wrote: »

So will Russia. One of my family got caught out as a spy and served time in prison in Russia. Now has a fairly important position in the western military.

Dopester I would like to remind you we are not at war with Russia...infact we're not officailly at "war" with anyone (as in the normal sense of the word)

And I would also like to point out Britian (as with many NATO forces) are not actually an invading type country....we mainly train and deploy on peacekeeping and aid operations.....we defend and very rarely actually invade.