SW Trains - treated like a terrorist!

doline21

believe it it is unfair ticket machine was not working for my son and he had to get to college only two stops and South West trains have now issued him with a court guilty or not guilty conviction. He has signed the guilty one although is feeling very unfairly treated as when stopped he tried to buy a ticket and was not allowed. Being a teenager he did not explain himself, find an inspector or write his side of the story when convicted, so we now wait to see what fine SW trains will place on him!
cheers

MrSmartprice

Last year we arrived at a station to find that there was a queue at the ticket office and that the automatic ticket machine only took coins, not notes. Our train was pulling into the station and we needed to get on it in order to catch a flight.

We were pleasantly surprised when a chap in uniform told us that we should get on the train and pay the conductor. So we did this and explained what had happened to the very pleasant woman who came checking tickets. She took our fare and issued us with the tickets at the correct price, using her remote ticket printer which was wirelessly connected to the train's computer.

The train was clean, modern and ran on time. The staff were friendly and there was no attempt to fleece us for penalty fares. Excellent service.

By the way, did I mention that this happened in France?;)

FARE-COP

MrSmartprice wrote: »

Last year we arrived at a station to find that there was a queue at the ticket office and that the automatic ticket machine only took coins, not notes. Our train was pulling into the station and we needed to get on it in order to catch a flight.

We were pleasantly surprised when a chap in uniform told us that we should get on the train and pay the conductor. So we did this and explained what had happened to the very pleasant woman who came checking tickets. She took our fare and issued us with the tickets at the correct price, using her remote ticket printer which was wirelessly connected to the train's computer.

The train was clean, modern and ran on time. The staff were friendly and there was no attempt to fleece us for penalty fares. Excellent service.

By the way, did I mention that this happened in France?;)

I like this post, it is one that always appears eventually when rail travel problems in the UK are discussed.

Of course, what it forgets to acknowledge is that SNCF is still a public utility and massively financed by the French government. Their fast, inter city services are truly superb, but many parts of the rural routes are not much better than the average over here.

Many of you will recall the news reports in 1993 that our great British public had apparently advised the then government that we didn't want that kind of railway here. We were told that what we wanted in the UK was a fragmented, privatised system because the 'competition' that would ensue would be better for all of us.

I was a Revenue Protection Inspector working for BR at the time and I lost count of the number of times that people without tickets aggressively told me and my colleagues 'You just wait until you lot are privatised, that'll sort you lot out'.

Well, as the public it seems that we got what we apparently wanted, private companies with little or no real joined up policy, low investment and slow improvement, but a will to pay returns to private investors.........it's worse!

Although very much involved at the beginning of this practice in the former BR Network SouthEast area, I am very definitely not a lover of Penalty Fares legislation either. For what it's worth, providing much better facilities to purchase tickets, coupled with more rigorous checking and robust prosecution of deliberate fare evasion is the way to go in my opinion.

Back to the OP. I have to say that I agree with what appears to be the majority view here in that the matter was handled correctly.

Remember, this is at Waterloo, a big mainline terminus. The OP could have gone to the ticket office as soon as the machine failure was evident, but didn't help themselves.

The OP made an 'assumption' that it would be OK to board and sort it out. The law makes no such assumption, it directs.

Yes, in some areas of this country there is a pay on train policy, but the law requires that any traveller must abide by the National Conditions of Carriage and the specific rules according to the company with which you are travelling. Travelling from Waterloo is not an area where pay-on-train operates and signs at the station advise the traveller accordingly.

The OP clearly knew that a ticket for travel was required.

The OP could have gone to the Guard (Train Manager in private rail company terminology) and explained the difficulty before attempting to board, but appears to have chosen not to do so. There is no guarantee, but this might well have resulted in on train staff being able to sort the problem with a minimum of difficulty before departure by liasing with station staff and the booking office

National Railways Byelaw 18 makes it a strict liability requirement to show a valid ticket on demand when on a train having boarded at any station where facilities to buy one were available.

The following legislation was last reviewed in 2007 and found not to need further amendment.

Section 16 Railway Regulation Act 1840: it is an offence to wilfully trespass on any railway or premises connected therewith and to refuse to leave when asked to do so by any officer or agent of the railway company. 'Wilfulness' can be proved by the refusal to leave. The offence is punishable by one month's imprisonment.

It appears that the guard asked the OP to show a ticket or, to pay the fare due and the OP refused or, failed to do so.

When legitimately asked to leave the train by rail staff the OP refused

When asked to leave the train by a Police Officer the OP refused and as someone else has already said, it is fortunate that an immediate arrest did not occur. Within the law it would have been justified.

It appears from the begining of this thread there is a case of a risk of 300 or so travellers being delayed by the intransigence of the OP. and as a matter of interest, there it is also an offence to willfully cause disruption to rail services.

The simple thing to do was to pay for a new ticket and claim a full refund citing the failure of the machine at the station or, to get off as directed by a police officer. It is clear there may have been an infrastructure failure and yes, the rail company do have a responsibility to address that issue, but there is a very old and very apt saying that 'two wrongs do not make a right'.


I am intrigued by the OPs reference to a 'non-specific screen error'. Debit cards are subject to the issuing banks' rules, not the rail companys'. What was the actual reason for rejection?

There appears to be evidence of both rail staff and police attempting to resolve the matter and to get the train moving with a minimum of disturbance and delay.

Is it any wonder therefore, that the rail company decided to get the train on its way, to minimise further delay to all those valid ticket holders on board and the police appear to have decided to take the offender off at the first opportunity when the train arrived at Basingstoke?

Perhaps the OP will hold a different view the next time they are in a hurry to get home or, to an important meeting, but find themselves on a train that is delayed for half an hour or more whilst waiting Police to arrive to deal with a ticketless football supporter or any other person who refuses to abide by the rules and pay a fare or, to quit the train?

Finally, I too think it ridiculous that anyone should use the comparison of being 'treated like a terrorist' to rack up the emotional impact of repeatedly being asked to comply with UK law and failing to do so.

Perhaps that is part of the culture of being a journalist in todays sensation obsessed society and this is inevitably followed by threats of exposure to publicity by all and sundry. In my experience these threats are always used when anyone remotely connected with the media is asked to comply with a rule that they don't like. I apologise if that offends any of those many, good journalists that may be reading this, but it is as relevant as tarring all rail staff with the same brush as the bad minority.

Those that have nothing to be ashamed of are always pleased to hear that their boss will be advised that they were doing their job properly.

gner_ex

The one thing noone has said in this message is there are (literally) a dozen machines at Waterloo. Why not go to another machine?

sunshinetours

Not sure how the pre booking system works but common sense (on all sides) would indicate that you pay a penalty fare and complain and then get it back later. The OP is not a fare dodger as presumably they can show they did indeed book and pay for a ticket in advance (do you not get an email confirmation of ticket reservation?).
Life today would be much easier if common sense ruled rather than the ridiculous rule laden state we live in these days where everything but everything has to be fined first and ask questions later. Also looking at some of the answers shows how many people have become slaves to following rules without question as well........ yes the OP should have handled the whole situation different and not posted like a Sun headline writer but jeez.........

p00hsticks

sunshinetours wrote: »

The OP is not a fare dodger as presumably they can show they did indeed book and pay for a ticket in advance (do you not get an email confirmation of ticket reservation?).

Although I'm not suggesting for a minute that the OP would do this, there is nothing to stop a dishonest person making a ticket reservation, collecting the tickets, passing them on to a friend / accomplice to use themselves on the journey and then boarding the train and claiming to the ticket inspector that 'the machine didn't print my tickets properly but here's the e-mail reservation to show I bought them'.

I commute daily and you wouldn't believe the number of people who don't have valid tickets for the train and the reasons they come up with for not doing so. I'm sure some of them are legitimate but I suspect that the vast majority are simply trying to get away without paying.
Yesterday a teenage girl was loudly telling her companion in earshot of the entire carriage of the easiest ways to travel by train without having to buy a ticket.

And it's honest people like me who end up paying the price with increased fares.

FARE-COP

p00hsticks wrote: »

Although I'm not suggesting for a minute that the OP would do this, there is nothing to stop a dishonest person making a ticket reservation, collecting the tickets, passing them on to a friend / accomplice to use themselves on the journey and then boarding the train and claiming to the ticket inspector that 'the machine didn't print my tickets properly but here's the e-mail reservation to show I bought them'.

I commute daily and you wouldn't believe the number of people who don't have valid tickets for the train and the reasons they come up with for not doing so. I'm sure some of them are legitimate but I suspect that the vast majority are simply trying to get away without paying.
Yesterday a teenage girl was loudly telling her companion in earshot of the entire carriage of the easiest ways to travel by train without having to buy a ticket.

And it's honest people like me who end up paying the price with increased fares.

You're right, that is a quite common occurrence, along with a legion of other dodges that many people try on daily, thinking that they are the only one doing it and will not get caught out.

Here's a really common one: Two people travelling on a one way journey. Person 'A' buys a single ticket using a credit / debit card at a self-service machine, gives the ticket to person 'B' who sits along the train from person 'A'.

When the ticket check is made 'B' passes the test without question, but 'A' says "I'm ever so sorry, I can't find my ticket, I seem to have mislaid it. I bought it at the machine look, I've got the receipt and my card here, but I think I must have dropped the actual ticket when I took it out of the machine." Don't try it, Inspectors are trained to look for it and you will be prosecuted.

Over twenty years ago in the NSE team we used to laughingly say that if we heard or saw a new dodge we'd let the fiddler go free on the first occasion, but I don't ever remember anyone doing so.

gner_ex

FARE-COP wrote: »

Over twenty years ago in the NSE team we used to laughingly say that if we heard or saw a new dodge we'd let the fiddler go free on the first occasion, but I don't ever remember anyone doing so.

Like it. Did you ever hear about the bishop travelling from wakefield to kings cross? This was back in intercity days, I believe just after the electrics were introduced. Apparently the guy who caught him was a a churchgoer - not sure if this is just folklore though - before my time.

Cherie Blair and Ken Livingstone have also done it...

ticketcollector

FARE-COP wrote: »

Over twenty years ago in the NSE team we used to laughingly say that if we heard or saw a new dodge we'd let the fiddler go free on the first occasion, but I don't ever remember anyone doing so.

I also used to work to that saying as well.
In all my years with BR and later, I also never ever remember letting anyone off.

anewman

FARE-COP wrote: »

The simple thing to do was to pay for a new ticket and claim a full refund citing the failure of the machine at the station

How much would that ticket be and would the OP have had the money on them? They had already paid for a ticket!