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What happens if the UK goes bankrupt (if it isn't already)?

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Comments

  • tomterm8
    tomterm8 Posts: 5,892 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    Degenerate wrote: »
    I'm still trying to get my head around what the point of a CDS for a sovereign nation that issues its own currency is. At worst such countries will stealth default - you'll get your pounds, dollars or yen back, they just won't be worth as much. Surely this certain repayment of the principal and interest means the CDS is worthless as it will never be triggered? Do they have some sort of provision for currency devaluation?

    Soverign nations who issue debt in their own currency sometimes default. I know economists say this should theoretically never happen. But it did happen to Russia, and it did happen to Britain in the 70's. Sometimes it is better for a country to outright default than to hyperinflate its way out of debt.
    “The ideas of debtor and creditor as to what constitutes a good time never coincide.”
    ― P.G. Wodehouse, Love Among the Chickens
  • chucky
    chucky Posts: 15,170 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    tomterm8 wrote: »
    Soverign nations who issue debt in their own currency sometimes default. I know economists say this should theoretically never happen. But it did happen to Russia, and it did happen to Britain in the 70's. Sometimes it is better for a country to outright default than to hyperinflate its way out of debt.
    aren't there different forms of default?

    you don't have to be bankrupt to default.

    a failure to pay or even repudiation is a default and so is debt restructure (not sure how sovereigns can restructure debt though)
  • blueboy43
    blueboy43 Posts: 575 Forumite
    tomterm8 wrote: »
    Soverign nations who issue debt in their own currency sometimes default. I know economists say this should theoretically never happen. But it did happen to Russia, and it did happen to Britain in the 70's. Sometimes it is better for a country to outright default than to hyperinflate its way out of debt.

    Are you sure ?

    I don't think the UK has ever defaulted on its debts (at least from 17th C onwards).
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    blueboy43 wrote: »
    Are you sure ?

    I don't think the UK has ever defaulted on its debts (at least from 17th C onwards).

    There was a kind of default after WW2 when the UK issued very low interest Gilts that did not have maturity dates that I think creditors were obliged to take.

    Another example of a UK default is changing the retirement age for Government employees and state pension recipients.

    AFAIK, it's been a very long time since the UK missed a coupon payment on a Gilt.
  • blueboy43
    blueboy43 Posts: 575 Forumite
    Generali wrote: »
    There was a kind of default after WW2 when the UK issued very low interest Gilts that did not have maturity dates that I think creditors were obliged to take.

    Another example of a UK default is changing the retirement age for Government employees and state pension recipients.

    AFAIK, it's been a very long time since the UK missed a coupon payment on a Gilt.


    It's not really a default is it ?

    Is it that much different than when the link between state pensions and earnings was changed in 1980 ?

    Arguably the effect of the chance in the way state pensions was calculated had a far greater impact.
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    blueboy43 wrote: »
    It's not really a default is it ?

    Is it that much different than when the link between state pensions and earnings was changed in 1980 ?

    Arguably the effect of the chance in the way state pensions was calculated had a far greater impact.

    It is a default. If I have a debt to you which is due on your 65th birthday and I then say, 'Actually I'll repay you in another 3 years' then I've defaulted.

    Moving from the earnings to inflation link is also a default.

    It may not be much of a default but it still represents a failure to pay what was promised. That is a default.

    The explicit reason that pensions aren't included in the national debt is that the Government can default on them by a simple change in the law.
  • Linton
    Linton Posts: 18,352 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Hung up my suit!
    edited 27 August 2010 at 10:54AM
    Generali wrote: »
    It is a default. If I have a debt to you which is due on your 65th birthday and I then say, 'Actually I'll repay you in another 3 years' then I've defaulted.

    Moving from the earnings to inflation link is also a default.

    It may not be much of a default but it still represents a failure to pay what was promised. That is a default.

    The explicit reason that pensions aren't included in the national debt is that the Government can default on them by a simple change in the law.


    I would disagree. State pensions arent a debt due to be repaid when one is 65. They are a current payment by those who can work to those who, on average, are too old.

    If life expectancy and the general health of the population increases it is perfectly reasonable within the objectives of the scheme for the state pensionable age to increase. There is no default of any kind.

    You get a similar thing with private pensions. One may have saved all one's life on the basis of the then current annuity rates. In recent years they have, say, halved. Would you regard that as a default by the insurance companies?
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Linton wrote: »
    I would disagree. State pensions arent a debt due to be repaid when one is 65. They are a current payment by those who can work to those who, on average, are too old.

    If life expectancy and the general health of the population increases it is perfectly reasonable within the objectives of the scheme for the state pensionable age to increase. There is no default of any kind.

    There is a promise to make a payment in return for payments into the National Insurance fund. The date of the pension is deferred which is a default. Try telling the tax man that you are happy to pay your NI but you'll do it in 3 years.
    Linton wrote: »
    You get a similar thing with private pensions. One may have saved all one's life on the basis of the then current annuity rates. In recent years they have, say, halved. Would you regard that as a default by the insurance companies?

    With a private pension, your pension provider offers to invest on your behalf to the best of its ability in return for a fee. The only exception I can think of was Equitable Life that made a promise which it defaulted on. As a result, EL is bankrupt.
  • nicko33
    nicko33 Posts: 1,125 Forumite
    Generali wrote: »
    It is a default. If I have a debt to you which is due on your 65th birthday and I then say, 'Actually I'll repay you in another 3 years' then I've defaulted.
    Depends. Is it due at 65, or at whatever relevant State Pension Age (variable) is in force
  • Generali
    Generali Posts: 36,411 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/default
    v. de·fault·ed, de·fault·ing, de·faults
    v.intr.1. a. To fail to do what is required.
    b. To fail to pay money when it is due.

    http://www.investorwords.com/1350/default.html
    Failure to make required debt payments on a timely basis or to comply with other conditions of an obligation or agreement
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