Britain has gone mad - Labour 'most trusted' on economy!

nickmason

SGE1 wrote: »

And re your comment about politicians refusing to apologise, I think this is a symptom all politicians suffer from, and one I understand. As soon as an admission of guilt or incorrectness is made, a political career is over. While you may think you might appreciate what you perceive to be truthfulness, if this truthfulness were actually displayed in practice, your reaction may be very different, and I certainly know the media's would be.

Two observations:
1) It seems you have such faith in the government that you believe they must have done the right thing; or if not at least they did what they did for the best intentions. (There is vast amounts of evidence that the government knew what was looming, and went ahead with it.) It is of course possible that this was a great plan of redistribution, or nationalisation, or (my favourite) simply keeping with the (international) flock, despite an awareness of a greater level of vulnerability here, see my earlier post about courage. You might believe that they are right, or forgive them their intentions, even if the end product is not working out quite right, because of an ideological sympathy.
But as you have pointed out already, there is space for more than one viewpoint. Some people are therefore wrong, in order for others to be right.
2) And that's where apologies come in. I'm a (albeit local) politician, I've apologised, because I've discovered my views to be wrong, or my actions not the best. It actually happens all the time, and not always in private (after all private and public in politics are moot points). Without that experience, I'd not improve as a politician as well as I might.

At risk of sounding pretentious, if you're a pluralist, then it stands to reason that you will accept mistakes. Sure you might have to resign if they're bad enough. But it's that denial of honesty in government that is so horrendous about the current government,

A few weeks ago, I saw a summary of your career to date (on here!), and it looked like you might well be an MP in the future - at least you have that sort of career path, working in parliament and the labour party from what I remember; fertile next generation territory. I might be on the other side, but please don't believe that politics is failed. When you believe that, it's time to leave, not start.

Apologies if this is too ad-hominem, or personal. I wouldn't have engaged if the principle wasn't soo important.

drbeat

nickmason wrote: »

A few weeks ago, I saw a summary of your career to date (on here!), and it looked like you might well be an MP in the future - at least you have that sort of career path, working in parliament and the labour party from what I remember

ahh...right with that in mind I'll knock the Brown knocking on the head with this SG1 guy/girl. Pointless arguing the toss wuth a Nu Labourite.

Dithering_Dad

ben500 wrote: »

Is that better dd, I'll not have it said I won't listen to constructive criticism.

Much better thanks!

Though he was undefeated at WBA and WBC as well (having given them up to move to Light Heavy).

I love boxing. I used to do kick boxing until I became too old, too slow and had my ribs broken a couple of months back during a training session. I crochet now, much safer.

Generali

Dithering_Dad wrote: »

Much better thanks!

Though he was undefeated at WBA and WBC as well (having given them up to move to Light Heavy).

I love boxing. I used to do kick boxing until I became too old, too slow and had my ribs broken a couple of months back during a training session. I crochet now, much safer.

Be careful you don't end up 'crochet drunk'. It's something to do with the clicking of the needles apparently. Very nasty.

Dithering_Dad

Generali wrote: »

Be careful you don't end up 'crochet drunk'. It's something to do with the clicking of the needles apparently. Very nasty.

It is mesmeric, I must admit. There isn't a plantpot or china bowl in our house that hasn't a doily under it. I'm moving onto collars next.

lostinrates

SGE1 wrote: »

1) Not really - we live in a capitalist society, and those that think our regime resembles communism in anyway (where the Government is involved in everything) should pick up a political theory book. To be honest, I don't really think assuming the Government is involved in all things, and basing one's argument on that assumption, is a great start...
.

We live in a governed capatalist society.

We have financial authorities and a bank and rules and regulations relating to tiny details of banking practise and financial affaires, along with more blanket but relevant regulation and law.

ben500

Dithering_Dad wrote: »

It is mesmeric, I must admit. There isn't a plantpot or china bowl in our house that hasn't a doily under it. I'm moving onto collars next.

Excellent therapy to delay or check the onset of arthritis I hear.

Julu

Generali wrote: »

Be careful you don't end up 'crochet drunk'. It's something to do with the clicking of the needles apparently. Very nasty.

You might be dead clever when it comes to politics - but you know sod all about crochet - its' ONE hook, not needles

Is that wher GB is going wrong, do you think?

Julu

Julu wrote: »

You might be dead clever when it comes to politics - but you know sod all about crochet - its' ONE hook, not needles

Is that wher GB is going wrong, do you think?

... oh no, spinning is something completely different!

SGE1

nickmason wrote: »

Two observations:
1) It seems you have such faith in the government that you believe they must have done the right thing; or if not at least they did what they did for the best intentions. (There is vast amounts of evidence that the government knew what was looming, and went ahead with it.) It is of course possible that this was a great plan of redistribution, or nationalisation, or (my favourite) simply keeping with the (international) flock, despite an awareness of a greater level of vulnerability here, see my earlier post about courage. You might believe that they are right, or forgive them their intentions, even if the end product is not working out quite right, because of an ideological sympathy.
But as you have pointed out already, there is space for more than one viewpoint. Some people are therefore wrong, in order for others to be right.
2) And that's where apologies come in. I'm a (albeit local) politician, I've apologised, because I've discovered my views to be wrong, or my actions not the best. It actually happens all the time, and not always in private (after all private and public in politics are moot points). Without that experience, I'd not improve as a politician as well as I might.

At risk of sounding pretentious, if you're a pluralist, then it stands to reason that you will accept mistakes. Sure you might have to resign if they're bad enough. But it's that denial of honesty in government that is so horrendous about the current government,

A few weeks ago, I saw a summary of your career to date (on here!), and it looked like you might well be an MP in the future - at least you have that sort of career path, working in parliament and the labour party from what I remember; fertile next generation territory. I might be on the other side, but please don't believe that politics is failed. When you believe that, it's time to leave, not start.

Apologies if this is too ad-hominem, or personal. I wouldn't have engaged if the principle wasn't soo important.

These are all valid points. I am perhaps slightly closer to the current establishment than most people, and this might be why I'm convinced that this Government is right. But I was speaking hypothetically when talking about politicians unwillingness to apologise - in the sense that, should Brown have made a mistake, I could understand why he might not apologise, as the implications of that apology may be greater than the benefits it would bring. Though, because I don't think he's done anything wrong in this case, I don't think has anything to apologise for. I am what you might call a pluralist though, and do agree that mistakes have been made in the past (I would argue that the Iraqi invasion was a mistake, though I must stress, I think the intentions behind it were good). But just not in this instance.

You say you're in local politics - I assume, a councillor? Or working in a constituency office? Either way, I'm sure you won't argue that the pressures on the PM are somewhat more elevated that they are on you, so the implications of apologies won't be the same.

And I don't mind the ad hominem comments - though I assure you all you won't catch me as an MP, it's a rotten job, and the money's not even great, considering how much work is involved. My career (all 18 months of it anyway ) has slightly diversified since anyway.