Can you be OS with costly principles?

gailey_2

I have been giving it some thourght latly and discussed with hubby

Is Good food only affordable to the rich and well off?
Reason I mention this is there are times in Tesco/sainsburys and waitrose and even m&s peoples trollys laden with lots of fruit and veg organic stuff.
Im bit nosy and like apeek at others shopping when bored in queue one lady had entirly organic fruit/veg and meat even some of her groceries were organic and finest ranges.

I am quite pricipled when it comes to meat and eggs hubby not so much but I have now forced him to my way of thinking just however its a challange
I prefer corn fed chicken and hubby agrees much tastier.
Realistically we cant afford organic meat unless reduced so opt for free range if cheap or rspca freedom food think ist caleld willow farm pulty in tesco which is actually quite reasonable with whole birds being £4-5 and fillets being 6-7.
Morrisions does small range of rspca food but availiabily and quality is hit and miss.
Meat in sainsburys noramlly quite pricey unless on offer or reduced cost me £15 for fere range turkey last year.

Also I struggle to find much about welfare of red meat and turkey throughout year so never know what to buy.

To balance things out im trying to encourage hubby to eat more veggie optiosn liek quorn and fish as cheaper.

When my daughter was tiny like pureeing maniac I was I brought all organic veg to make her meals as refused to use jars but as she got older and now eating proper meals I stille nsure shes eats lots of fruit and veg with good quality meat but just cannot afford organic.

So I wondered are there any oldstyler who manage to balance with priciples with low budget? Do you buy all organic/free range.

Also dont know if anyones herd of healthy start vouchers as replacement for milk vouchers we dont get them think you have to be on benefits but they can be used against fruit and veg now as well as milk

I mean if you were to crutinise the average supermarket junk foods always cheap and on offer a family sized readymeal in iceland for £2 is always going be cheaper than buying all fresh ingreediants and making it from scratch with I feel does create an unfair soceity

Watching jaimie olivers minsitry of food latly most said couldent afford the price of fresh compared to ready prepared although some were talking rubbish as was spending 70quid on takeaways a week and giving 5year old kebabs but luckily she sorted herself out.
I wish scholls would teach proper home economics and meal planning whats important ect and how to cook as so many of younger generation dont cook and obesity on rise they see good eating as middle class thing out of their reach which is quite sad.

I mean many of you on here eat really well for less money and its amazing ideas but I find meat does bump my grocery bill up but dont want to budge on priciples just want to get the best that we can afford appently europenas spend more on food than british as they veiw food as super important.
On the continenet as noticed on holidays in spain and greece they dont have the ready meal and junkfood culture we have here, in uk we more like americans even mcdonals portion sizes in europe are smaller.

purpleivy

I think this is a really thought provoking message and I really understand where you are coming from. There is a very mixed bunch of folk here, those who have to manage on a really meagre amount for food, as there is no choice, through to those who can afford to spend on food, but for a huge variety of reasons - health and medical needs e.g. special diets or wanting to avoid highly manufactured or food stuffed with or created from chemicals, taste, budget, principles and others- do things the OS way. It's a lot about making the most of what you have.

For me, I don't like processed foods in general, family loves home made items and done in an effective way using freezer etc doesn't take too much time. Some people can't believe how low my food budget is.

I will be really interested to seee what other people think. Thanks for your contribution.

Plum_Pie

From the Food Standards Agency website:

http://www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/farmingfood/organicfood/

Is organic food and milk more nutritious?
Consumers may choose to buy organic fruit, vegetables and meat because they believe them to be more nutritious than other food. However, the balance of current scientific evidence does not support this view.
Nutrient levels in food vary depending on many different factors. These include freshness, storage conditions, crop variety, soil conditions, weather conditions and how animals are fed. All crops and animals therefore vary in nutrient level to some extent. The available evidence shows that the nutrient levels and the degree of variation are similar in food produced by both organic and conventional agriculture. All processed food, including organic, has a nutrient content that is dependent on the nutrient content of ingoing ingredients, recipe and cooking methods. The impact of processing on nutrient levels will be the same for products made from organically and conventionally produced ingredients.


What about organic milk?
While the nutrient profile of organic milk appears to be different from non-organic milk, care must be taken when drawing conclusions as to the nutritional significance of this. Dairy sources of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids are not a viable alternative to eating oily fish. Milk contains the shorter chain form of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (alpha-linolenic acid), while the forms present in oily fish are the long chain fatty acids (eicosapentaenoic (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acids (DHA)).
Research has shown that the short chain form found in plant and dairy sources does not appear to be as beneficial as those found in oily fish, which have been shown to be protective for cardiovascular disease, and may also have beneficial effects on foetal development. Although the shorter form can be metabolised to the longer forms, in humans the conversion appears limited.

Isn't there evidence that organic food is safer and more nutritious?

It is true that some scientific papers reach this conclusion. However, others find no difference. As in any field of science, to reach a robust conclusion it is necessary to evaluate the weight of evidence across a range of published papers. Care should be taken over reliance on single papers.
The Agency maintains a close watch on scientific papers that evaluate organic food and will continue to assess new research as it is published.

adsk

If you are working to a budget the easiest way to save money, as you've mentioned, is to eat less meat. If you are particular about animal welfare and want to buy organic or free range meat it will cost a lot more than irish beef/danish pork/intensive chickens etc

Some of the money that you save by eating less meat you can invest in buying more organic fruit and vegetables. Buying in season also helps keep costs down.

Some things you get used to... I actually prefer using green lentils in a chilli 'sans' carne instead of mince, I would much rather eat a chickpea & spinach curry than a meat curry.

As for organic meat & poultry, buying leg instead of breast meat for example will make the money go further.

competitionscafe

Interesting post gailey.

When it comes to fruit and veg I think eating lots of fruit and veg is more important than wether or not it's organic. Organic does seem to have become a bit of a middle class thing - but supermarkets are also very expensive places to buy organic fruit and veg. Box schemes and farm shops are usually cheaper. In general I am personally in favour of organic farming for environmental reasons and for animal welfare reasons but of course it costs more to farm in this way. If the price difference between organic and non-organic is small then I will usually go for organic but where the difference is huge (sometimes as much as double) I refuse to pay that much more on principle as while I realise there is an organic premium I think in some cases there is also just profiteering. There is also a list of the top ten fruit and veg which are most heavily sprayed with pesticides and I try and buy these organic as well as milk and dairy products.

With meat again I don't think organic is the be all and end all - many smallscale farmers and smallholders raise animals to beyond official organic standards but aren't certified organic as it costs them too much. Lamb can be indoor reared but is usually the least intensively reared meat out of beef, pork and lamb with pork being the most intensively reared of the 3 generally.

So to reduce my food budget my choice would be to go for cheaper cuts of meat from a good butcher but still with high-welfare standards in mind (free-range chicken thighs, grass fed beef - skirt, brisket, topside, shin etc) but also eat less meat and more pulses and grains (which is healthier anyway). Cheap (and sustainable) fish includes mackerel, gurnard, pollack and coley (Although I think the last 2 are rather bland and tasteless!) For cheaper fruit and veg I would go to local greengrocers or market (if we had one locally) as well as the weekly box scheme - mine is £11 per week for organic fruit and veg delivered to my door for free. Bulk buying half a lamb for example is another option to reduce costs. Spices, fresh herbs (parsley, coriander) wholegrains and pulses can be a lot cheaper in healthfood shops or asian shops than in supermarkets, etc.

thriftlady_2

Well, I was going to contribute to this thread, but Competitionscafe has already said exactly what I was going to say:T

I'd only add that a whole chicken is always a better buy than chicken parts. You can use the bones to make stock. You may find a good butcher who will sell you several free-range chickens for the freezer at a discount (mine does). The butcher will cut them up for you too.


I particularly agree that eating more fruit and veg is more important than eating organic fruit and veg.

My brother and sil only buy organic food (where they can). They have a much smaller income than we do, and I really don't know how they manage. They do have an allotment though so that must be quite a moneysaver.

thriftlady_2

Another note about meat. Although it may not be organic, beef and lamb from this country is free-range.

As has been said eating less meat is definitely the best way of reducing your food budget without compromising your principles.

EssexHebridean

Our principles over food have been fairly well honed over the past few years. We don't feel that organic is a "must" but rather we concentrate on buying locally produced food or at least British where we can. For a Tesco shopper that means mushrooms are always organic - as all their non-organic ones come from Holland or Poland. We also have a veg box fortnightly which is great - ours is £13 per fortnight and the stuff in that is great - if I could source a local company simply doing locally grown, non organic though, and make a saving, I would. We top up veg, and buy fruit from the Supermarket.

The only meat product I now buy in the supermarket is chicken - that is always free range, I don't bother with organic unless they are reduced and the per lb price is lower than FR. Eggs - always FR and preferably from the farmers market, although when Tesco have one of their periodic cheap offers on I get those. The rest of our meat comes from the Farmers market - we spend around £25 per month there on meat I would estimate. Some of what we buy is then bulk cooked into easy meals for working nights when I don't want to cook - bolognese sauce, curry etc. The balance is portioned up and frozen as an easy ingredient. My average weekly spend at Tesco is about £23 - this covers fruit and veg as mentioned before, plus cleaning materials, things like yogurts, milk etc. (Dairy, by the way, we only buy organic due to some of the welfare concerns over non-organic dairy herds) We make our own bread (non-organic flour used) and don't buy cakes, I bake them if we want them.

I'd guess that our average food spend (averaged across the year) comes to somewhere about £32 per week - this covers the two of us and includes lunches as we take packed lunches to work - and we both like our food. I'd say we eat food of a very good quality indeed, mainly by buying carefully and selectively. I could (and have, in the past) reduce this, but we are currently at a level we are hapy with and can afford.

Thanks for posting this thread - it raises an interesting debate and one which I have long held a particular interest in. There seems to be more and more programmes appearing on our TV screens focusing on getting people to cook, when what is actually needed is one teaching people how to shop well and make the best of what they buy.

maltesers_2

There is a way to get organic veg at reasonable prices and that is to grow your own. We have two allotments and are basically self sufficient in fruit and veg which is always ultra fresh and organically grown. Any excess is given and sometimes bartered (often for wine). If you know anyone else who wants to be organic you could offer to share with them and or sell excess fruit and veg. We have apples, gooseberries, strawberries, rhubarb, plums, redcurrants and blackcurrants and raspberries. Raspberries are very expensive and we have kilos of them in the freezer. Plus free hedgerow fruits. some is frozen and some made into jam and puds which are frozen. If you do get an allotment you will also find other people will give you veg and lots of help and advice while you get started.

At the moment we have stored onions and garlick which might last until next years crop, some butternut squash which keep well. We have sweetcorn, french and runner beans, sliced peppers, tomatoes,broad beans, celery, cauliflower, swede and herbs frozen and have fresh sprouts, carrots, cabbage, leeks, raddicio and winter lettuce on the allotment. We used to have potatoes but now only have early new potatoes.

Before we had the allotment I used to grow enough for two of us in a small raised bed about 8 feet x 4 plus runner beans in a half barrel and tomatoes etc in pots.

We kept 3 chickens too for a while which produced one egg each per day - unfortunately, a fox came.

Probably the best way to get good happy meat is to search round your area to find some farm shops which are reasonably priced. There are some trendy farm shops which are over priced but many are much cheaper than supermarkets. Do some research online and find some decent local suppliers.
Plus continue to buy happy meat when you see it reduced.

Hope this helps

Caterina

Our family is in the fortunate position to be able to afford organic food (also, I am the main money-allocator and my priority is to feed my family great food over buying them a lot of fancy goods etc.).

Having said that we are by no mean rich, but very careful on how we spend our money. For example we do not have a car (easy in London and able-bodied, thanks God), we do not take holidays abroad (just occasional trips to see my mum - those are NOT holidays believe me!!!) and we do not fly.

We get organic veg from Riverford (small or seasonal box) and top up with the Abel and Cole farmer's bag via our local Kindergarten, who do it as a fundraiser. We buy most of our fruit from our local farmers' market, mainly apples and pears - bananas occasionally come reduced from supermarkets, likewise odd citrus etc.

Organic, locally produced eggs come via the milkman, as we do not buy milk but we like to keep the service alive we decided to order them this way, together with (yucky) sliced white bread for DS and DD (teenagers will be teenagers! hehe)

We buy - rarely - only yellow-stickered organic meat (DS is the only meat eater) - perhaps one steak at between £2 and £3 a fortnight, or so.

Fish: rarely, mainly tinned mackerel or Sainsbury's smoked pollack from the basics (sustainable fish as far as I understand). Very very rare treat, Scottish organic smoked salmon - perhaps every couple of months and we stretch it eating it with scrambled eggs.

We buy all pulses and grains in bulk via my business, likewise any soya or rice milk (nobody uses much of the stuff apart from DH on his cereals).

In general we cook everything from scratch, although we no longer bake bread because the teens prefer the yucky sliced and DH and I prefer oatcakes and cracker bread, and occasional fancy loaves from the farmers market.

I used to buy all pasta and tinned tomatoes organic but now I alternate and only buy them organic if I find them on a special offer. Unusual for a 50% Italian family pasta is not the carb of choice, more like rice and potatoes, both mostly organic (and potatoes local too!).

We buy a lot of our clothes in jumble sales and charity shops, a lot of our entertainment is either free (winning tickets, taking advantage of vouchers etc) or very low cost - if we every go out to dinner it is always with some voucher offer or the other.

We also use minimal cosmetics and toiletries, natural where possible and also homemade, likewise cleaning with natural, gentle detergents (bulk bought).

I am really grateful that we are not poor and I am very aware that if DH job went we would have to dramatically reduce the organic purchases.

I, as the main shopper, choose to buy organic (and local as far as possible, even in preference to organic) not because of more nutrient, but because I resent feeding myself and my family pesticides and insecticides with my food.

Someone said that the organic concept is middle class, but before the industrialisation of food, all food was "organic", there was no such division between organic and non-organic, it all got grown with manure etc...

Also, as a family we try to be as nice as we can to the Earth and supporting the organic movement we feel we encourage bettery husbandry, friendlier, more natural and gentler ways to cultivate fields, no damage to wildlife and water courses... so many more reasons I do not want to preach so I shall shut up now!

Caterina

Edited to say: does anyone really trust whatever the Food Standards Agency says, they are a government body and I bet they are funded and financed (directly or indirectly) by the food industry, industrial donations etc... who knows...The long arm of Monsanto (genetic engineering giant) and the enormous financial interests behind intensive farming make me very suspicious of any established body that tries to persuade me that the newfangled ways are better than the millennia-established farming practices (which is all what organic is after all!). Ok, I shut up for real now!

Aril

This is a very interesting post so thanks for the issues you have raised. We have priced out freerange chickens from our local independent butchers and the supermarkets we have in the town including Mr T. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the butcher came out cheaper and you get fantastic service from them. We now buy a whole chicken and make sure it's all used. Like other posters we have reduced our meat consumption but sadly our budget precludes all organic and freerange meat. We do eat fish aswell which you could argue is int the main organic but then there's the argument about overfishing [we have stopped eating cod and now eat pollack which is sustainable]
With regards to fruit and veg my father in law maintains that the same polluted rain falls on the fruit and veg irrespective of whether it's organic or not. This I stress is his opinion and I merely offer it up as another viewpoint for discussion
Aril