NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

expat68

Hello to all the lurkers :hello:

Join us again tomorrow for a :coffee:and :grouphug:


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red_bertie

Late night input. Have any of you PMS savers contacted the CAB or taken legal advice? They might be able to advise on which solicitor to approach, and if the no win,no fee path is viable. If you are to form a pressure/action group they might assist in the best way to form this or if an individual approach might be more effective.

Ballygal

Hi there lurkers! Do take the plunge and like Hilaryconn:T , let the rest of us know that you are there!
You will feel SOOOO much better once you do!!!
I have only put up a few posts here, mainly when i was feeling really down or really angry but it does make you feel better!!

It makes you feel you have done something even if it is only to express what is inside you!!

Now for my expression of annoyance tonight before i try to sleep!!
It really annoyed me today that it says on Arthur's Boyd's formal insolvency order letter that it is A NOTICE OF RESULT OF MEETING OF CREDITORS!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
We did NOT have the choice of a meeting of real people!And the to add gall it states
A CREDITORS@ COMMITTEE WAS NOT FORMED!:mad: :mad: :mad: !!
Why not?
Because we don't know who the others affected are!!!

I still feel we need to meet up with others from this forum.
Why is everyone so scared of putting their fizzog above the parapet and letting others see who they are?
WE are not the ones who should be ashamed!!!:rolleyes:
Is there anything in the rules of forum etiquette to say we can't organise a meeting via this forum?
Could some of the more prominent forum contributors remind me if a meeting was discussed before and dismissed. Perhaps my poor memory is letting me down.
Now having vented my feelings I can go off to sleep

---

:rolleyes2 perchance to dream of money in my account????

Bannside_2

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/presbyterian-mutual-investors-to-accept-a-winddown-of-society-14180949.html

Latest article in today's Belfast Telegraph. Seems like the orderly wind down is the accepted way forward now.

goodbyepci

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7880260.stm

goodbyepci

Telegraph yesterday
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/community-telegraph/east-belfast/news/council-backs-plan-to-lobby-brown-14180436.html

D.A.

jon_groovy wrote: »

If there are any ministers read this forum, if they had any ounce of pity, they would be in tears.

Just a reminder that there are many ministers (and congregations) in exactly the same position as many of you.

Also a reminder that Church House and the PCI Hierarchy does not equal PCI. It is a very broad church, and you'll find that many of Church House's/the hierarchy's fiercest critics are the ministers themselves. If only a few more would have the guts to come out and say so...

freddiemae

jon_groovy wrote: »

well it seems that none have the guts now do they

I feared this when I posted about the "heads above the parapet" . Most of the savers are elderly and depend on their friends in the church. They would prefer to die penniless than sue the church which has been a big part of their lives. You would need many ministers to step forward -- a few would soon be overcome.
I am sorry but your betrayal by PCI and PMS may-- (and I hope not)-- also be by your fellow savers who are too frightened to speak up. Its a bitter pill to swallow. You will need to hope that either some law was broken and the govt steps in --- you can then sue more easily. Apart from that I think you will find that the story will drop off the edge of the planet and thats what Nomad was telling you about. It will get more difficult to interest anyone in your plight as small payments are paid out. Soon everyone will be a lot poorer as all the taxpayer bailouts take effect and there will be sympathy for very few.

D.A.

jon_groovy wrote: »

well it seems that none have the guts now do they

I have tried to hold my tongue on this for as long as possible. Being generally sympathetic to the plight of investors in the PMS (I am not directly affected, although a member of my family is), I support your campaign to find out as much as possible about what actually happened here.

However, I feel that certain posters on this thread are beginning to let their (very genuine, heartfelt and understandable) anger at what happened with the PMS turn into a generalised rant against PCI, all its ministers, etc. etc.

Do you have a legitimate right to be extremely angry with the directors of the PMS? Of course you do, and by all means, you should dig as deeply as possible to find out what was going on there. If you don't, no-one else will, and PCI will almost be doomed to making the same mistakes again, in other areas. (As I have said previously, a minister's job is to pastor his congregation, NOT to be involved in areas like the PMS!)

Do you have a legitimate right to be angry with *some* of the hierarchy of PCI? Yes, I think you do, particularly those who allowed the PMS to be seen as being connected to PCI, but who failed to exercise any oversight of it whatsoever, and then almost attempted to wash their hands of the whole affair when it blew up in their faces.

Do you have a right to be angry with "Church House"? Well, it depends what you mean by "Church House". It is not just some big amorphous blob in the centre of Belfast, which is evil and tries to control everything. "Church House" also consists of many staff who do their jobs extremely well (in some cases for little reward) and, at a guess, I would say some of these people are caught in exactly the same situation as yourselves, and you have no right whatsoever to be angry with them, as they did not cause this situation. If, by "Church House", you mean some of the hierarchy and those who should have had oversight of the PMS, my point above applies.

Do you have a right to be angry with the Moderator? It's a tricky one, but in my opinion, you don't. The man is only elected to be a 'figurehead' for the denomination for a period of a year, and, to be blunt, has very little real 'power'. Most of the decisions are made by the General Assembly or the Boards and Committees thereof. From what little I know, the Moderator is a decent man who is trying his best, but is being severely constrained by a) the law and b) the way PCI operates (generally at a snail's pace :-) ).

Do you have a right to be angry with PCI ministers? In general, no, with the exception of those who were directors of the PMS or those who heard the rumours and decided to withdraw theirs or their congregation's money. Many ministers who would have advised congregations to invest in the PMS would have been under exactly the same misconceptions as other investors - that the money would be safe, that there would be no speculation on buy-to-lets, etc. etc. Should ministers have been giving financial advice? Probably not, but let's remember that many investment decisions made on behalf of congregations would not have been suggested/backed solely by the minister. The Kirk Session would have made these decisions as a group, and let's remember how many of them are probably accountants and so on, who were also fooled.

Should you be angry at ministers not being able to do anything now? While it is understandable that you would be, you need to remember that they really can't do anything - yet. Whilst some have put their heads above the parapet and spoken their mind already, I would suggest many more will do so now the Adminstrator's proposals have been voted on, or at General Assembly time (should be an interesting one this year...).

So, to summarise, by all means direct your righteous anger against those who are directly responsible for this current mess, but do not let your anger turn into a rant against PCI in general.

What you need to do is to get yourselves together (physically) as a group and start making concrete plans for what your next steps should be. Posting on a forum is easy, but to blunt, actually achieves very little. You are all smart enough to be able to get to the truth of what went on, so good luck in doing so.

Finally, for those who are talking about withholding their FWO; by doing this, in general you will not be hurting anyone who was directly involved in causing this mess. You will hurt your own local congregation's work particularly, and your own minister (who is probably a very godly man, trying his best).

And I noticed a point a while back which said that there are many genuine missionary organisations which could use your money as much as PCI. Remember that some of the money you contribute to the United Appeal goes to the work of the Overseas Board, so by not contributing, you're actually hurting the work of overseas mission as well.

WWJD? It's not for me to presume to know, but at a guess, he would (in this order):

1) Help those who are in the direst need, if not with financial help, at least with moral support (which, I agree, some congregations may be failing to do);

2) Pursue those who caused the injustice to happen in the first place, and make them learn the lessons to ensure it didn't happen again.

3) Try to get his money back.

Please do not see this as some kind of patronising post. I support your cause 100%, but am just slightly concerned about how anger seems to be spiralling out of control and damaging an entire organisation because of the actions of a small few.

P.S. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss further. There is only a certain amount I can say on this forum.

crazymess

What, if anything, has been done with the signed petitions from the churches?

Can Church House gather these and forward them on to Government and get a total tally of names on the online petition - under 6000 names registered to date - pretty miserable for a total congregation of circa 300,000 people!