NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

expat68

I'll just chat to myself then. One other thought I had - does anyone (loganjh) know when the accounts for the PMS to year ended 31 March 2008 were actually filed with companies house/ DETI or whatever it is in NI. I just had a quick scan of the industrial and provident societies act 1969. Seems that PMS had 7 months after the year end to prepare and submit accounts. Now if they submitted accounts in say Aug/ Sept which were "true and fair" at that time, and reviewed and signed off by diligent auditors could they really have been true and fair if a couple of months later they are writing down the loans by 55%. I think that would have merited a note or disclosure in the accounts. If they submitted the accounts before June probably not much to comment on but the closer to Oct they submitted the more questions there are to be asked of the directors and auditors.

36square

expat68 wrote: »

.... a couple of months later they are writing down the loans by 55%...

That's the figure in the administrator's report and if you read the footnote it will tell you that's what he thinks the mortgage loan book could be sold for under current conditions.
There would probably be little interest in acquiring such a small book (£183mn) in any circumstances but if the PMS was to go into liquidation that's the administrator's best estimate of what it would realise. That's why a liquidation would be a very bad idea indeed.

It DOESN'T mean that more than half the loans are in default if that's what you're thinking.

crazymess

Epat and all

Minutes of Previous meetings attended in the last week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I'm beginning to wonder what we are worried about because apparently sit tight and all will be okay!!!!!!!!!!!! REALLY!!!

1. The reason we have problems is because 430 people withdrew 21 million in two weeks just after Prime Minister increased bank guarantee up to £50000. The society was successful until this.

2. PMS always took security on loan/advances and always took 1st charge.

3. PMS only lent to the value of 70%-75%

4. Properties bought in Scotland, England and Isle of Man - generating approx 8 million??? tenant examples are RBS!!!, Express Newspapers etc etc - a lot of them sounded okay.

5. The Administrator is the right person for the job and the cheapest!

6. The Solicitors acting are the right people as they will leave no stone unturned and reclaim our assets for those in default if any.

7. Big disappointment from PCI response to us all. However seems as if someone powerful got them turned round and apparently starting to hold meetings etc and promoting petition.


Shorthand isn't as good as it used to be! Overall quite good meetings and gave some hope.

Hope this helps - lots of questions still - long term is the best and hopefully Government will do something for us.

goodbyepci

expat68 wrote: »

Now if they submitted accounts in say Aug/ Sept which were "true and fair" at that time, and reviewed and signed off by diligent auditors could they really have been true and fair if a couple of months later they are writing down the loans by 55%. quote]

expat68

I seem to remember the booklet "2008 summary of accounts" was sent out about June/July 08?
Everything would have been signed off then.

Maybe someone else could confirm this?

expat68

crazymess wrote: »

Epat and all

Minutes of Previous meetings attended in the last week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I'm beginning to wonder what we are worried about because apparently sit tight and all will be okay!!!!!!!!!!!! REALLY!!!

1. The reason we have problems is because 430 people withdrew 21 million in two weeks just after Prime Minister increased bank guarantee up to £50000. The society was successful until this.

2. PMS always took security on loan/advances and always took 1st charge.

3. PMS only lent to the value of 70%-75%

4. Properties bought in Scotland, England and Isle of Man - generating approx 8 million??? tenant examples are RBS!!!, Express Newspapers etc etc - a lot of them sounded okay.

5. The Administrator is the right person for the job and the cheapest!

6. The Solicitors acting are the right people as they will leave no stone unturned and reclaim our assets for those in default if any.

7. Big disappointment from PCI response to us all. However seems as if someone powerful got them turned round and apparently starting to hold meetings etc and promoting petition.


Shorthand isn't as good as it used to be! Overall quite good meetings and gave some hope.

Hope this helps - lots of questions still - long term is the best and hopefully Government will do something for us.

Crazymess

Some reassurances there if all true, the l'estrange and brett partner in charge does seem to get good press. Also administrators fees while seemingly high for those people struggling on state pensions while the PMS has their money is actually not unreasonable and the likes of PwC or Deloittes could be double that.

Do disagree to some extent with point 1 - when investors got their acccounts next year and saw the drop in asset values that would certainly have started a run.

Can you tell us what meetings you were at ?

Good that LTV % were 70-75% as some buffer against drops in property value (assuming sensible valuations). Also good that 1st charge i.e. they have preferential claim on asset in case of default.

goodbyepci

Today's press cuttings

http://www.newtownabbeytoday.co.uk/news/Council-supports-Mutual-Society-savers.4919386.jp

http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/Online-campaign-for-PMS-guarantee.4920871.jp

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0128/1232923369748.html

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/coleraine-farming-show-cancelled-14159777.html

get2thefacts

My copy of the annual report and summary financial accounts, as approved by the directors on 12 June 2008, arrived in the post on 29 August 2008. However, unlike previous years' PMS did not include the full accounts as part of the annual report - for the first time these had to be requested separately from Glengall Street. But there was enough of concern even in the summary report and accounts to prompt me, and I am sure others acting prudently, to ask for a copy of the full set of accounts. Did anyone go along to the AGM on 18 Sept 08 and take notes? Incidentally the Minister's replies to the two written questions about PMS put down by Mr Kennedy MLA are now on the NI Assembly website - click on Assembly Questions/Weekly Answer Booklet/23.01.09/DETI and just scroll down.

KingVardas

Thanks Nomad for your response to my intervention. I'm not suggesting the outcome of your administration will be the same as Farepak. But as far as understanding administration goes I thought it might help as many of the posts on this thread seem to be about how your company was run before it got into trouble. I've been involved (the victim) of other insolvencies and the truth is that you can waste a lot of energy on that angle because companies are owned by their shareholders and they get to question directors and vote on their appointment at annual meetings. Seems democratic but in truth people don't have time to pay attention to how their company is run. Anway administrators and liquidators have to report on how directors ran a business to the government but you'll not hear about that because it is confidential, for good reason, no one wants to get sued for libel. Crazymess could be right, from what I've read on this thread about administrator's costs they seem reasonable against up to £400 an hour for the big firms. I'm not a creditor but I can still sign the petition to the prime minister - If I understand it right, the withdrawal of money from your society happened just after the government announced big new guarantees for bank savers, so they helped cause the problem. Good luck.

Nomad25

Folks - I feel we need to do this - we don't want a missed opportunity of getting our funds returned. If we keep quiet any longer maybe people will lose interest.

Thank you crazymess. Here's hoping........

fivealive_2

expat68
If there is anyone out there who got a loan maybe they could let us know the checks that were done by PMS and how complex or easy the process was. Probably doesnt help much now but something to talk about while we wait for recommencement of some news flow.

My husband and I approached the PMS on two different occassions in the mid '90's to borrow about 20k ( I think) for a "project" we had in mind. Unfortunately I kept all the paperwork UNTIL about 6 months ago when I dumped a whole load of "vintage" PMS stuff that I had on file......wish I had hoarded it for a bit longer now. Anyway my recollection is that we phoned Colin Ferguson and had a friendly chat, he sent out a simple form for us to fill in and then sent us a possible schedule of repayments depending on the "term" we would choose. We never proceeded with either loan as our circumstances changed but the impression we got was that the loan was available if we wanted it. We always found Colin to be an absolute gentleman and nothing was ever a problem.
:j