NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

Toastandbutter

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ANALYSIS-PMS-savers-more-interested.6087731.jp


http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/39Everyone-is-trying-to-pass.6086946.jp

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Three-options-on-table-for.6086947.jp

freddiemae

ballyblack wrote: »

Great interview with Mr Reilly on Radio Ulster this morning

Listen again here (fast forward 2hrs 5 mins into programme) :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qt18m

excellent piece Thanks - spoke for all the small shareholders (savers) who do not have a voice.


also on another forum

Piece on Slugger OToole about PMS and PCI responsibility

http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/presbyterian-mutual-stafford-carson-and-mental-reservation/

no_more_f.w.o

jon_groovy wrote: »

Dear Dr. Carson,
Why did you tell a ditrect untruth on Good Morning Ulster yesterday? You were asked why the PCI had not financially helped the PMS savers. You stated that it had no funds. However, when the interviewer pointed out that the PCI has considerable assets in property you claimed that it only owns churches and church halls.
That dishonestly ignores the following:
Church House
Union Theological College
The Bush Cafe
Derryvolgie Halls
Guysmere Youth Centre
and maybe other properties?
Whilst clearly the PCI needs somewhere to train ministers and indeed an headquarters do they need to be in such grandiose (and valuable) buildings. These could be sold or even simply mortgaged to raise considerbale sums to repay the moral debt which I see you acknowledge the PCI owes to the PMS savers.
Rather than admit to ownership of these properties you were extremely economical with the truth. Indeed the Catholic concept of Mental reservation springs to mind.
You may of course not put this comment up on your blog. However, do not worry I have blogged it on slugger o’toole.



Slugger, has the right, very reverend, honourable, right, very dr carson responded to this yet ?

On 28th December 2008 Liam Clarke wrote an article in the Sunday Times about the PMS.

Link below
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5403588.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

Go to page 2 paragraph 7 where he states

"So is there really nothing the church can do apart from giving pastoral advice to those left out of pocket? Church sources claim there is a general investment fund worth £43m and an estimated £20m in other reserves that could be brought into play. According to Arthur Boyd, the administrator, loans to church congregations and members amount to about £170m. Some of these borrowings by church bodies could be refinanced and repaid to help restore liquidity. The church has other assets — a site in Lucan, near Dublin, is valued at between £4m and £6m."

By my reckoning that adds up to at least £67M

YES

£67 million pounds

For a church that has "little funds"

Remember these figures from Liam Clarke have never been denied by the Church, and this article was written 14 months ago!!

Maybe someone would like to ask Dr Carson a few questions?

brick

Lester_F wrote: »

old man and his lawyer friend who have used to law to achieve something very far from justice.

Based on recent postings and subsequent Q&As, the suggestion seems to be that HCCT does have everyone's best interests at heart, unless I misinterpret. Too complicated for me, but perhaps SW will post again soon to elaborate.

One pertinent question:-

expat68 wrote: »

If HCCT get their funds back (less £20K) do they walk away and leave the savers with less than £20K to their own devices?

What I believe was the answer:-

Silent_Witness wrote: »

On your second the short answer is no.

BETRAYED

no_more_f.w.o wrote: »

On 28th December 2008 Liam Clarke wrote an article in the Sunday Times .........

"So is there really nothing the church can do apart from giving pastoral advice to those left out of pocket? Church sources claim there is a general investment fund worth £43m and an estimated £20m in other reserves that could be brought into play. According to Arthur Boyd, the administrator, loans to church congregations and members amount to about £170m. Some of these borrowings by church bodies could be refinanced and repaid to help restore liquidity. The church has other assets — a site in Lucan, near Dublin, is valued at between £4m and £6m."

By my reckoning that adds up to at least £67M

YES

£67 million pounds

For a church that has "little funds"

Remember these figures from Liam Clarke have never been denied by the Church, and this article was written 14 months ago!!

Maybe someone would like to ask Dr Carson a few questions?

Most or all of the above can be substantiated from Statements of Accounts in the 2009 Annual Reports of The General Assembly.
All clergy and representative elders eligible to attend the General Assembly last June got a copy.

BETRAYED

Report of Court proceedings yesterday. Creditors' Committee at last.

http://www.u.tv/News/Future-of-PMS-back-in-court/858b68cf-8e8a-4f44-a13e-0c5ede7e3ffe

BETRAYED

UUP Website Sam Gardiner MLA


http://www.uup.org/news/economy/economy-archive/pms-regulatory-gap-would-have-been-spotted-by-legislative-revising-mechanisms.php

no_more_f.w.o

brick wrote: »

Based on recent postings and subsequent Q&As, the suggestion seems to be that HCCT does have everyone's best interests at heart, unless I misinterpret. Too complicated for me, but perhaps SW will post again soon to elaborate.

Now that we have established this fact

Maybe an apology from Lester F for his nasty smear campaign would be in order?

abeliever

no_more_f.w.o wrote: »

Now that we have established this fact

Maybe an apology from Lester F for his nasty smear campaign would be in order?

Have we established this fact? Where is the evidence ??

All I can see is that a judge, in the Howie judgement, has decided that (in this mutual society) loanholders are different from shareholders !

When a shareholder with £19950 savings added another £100 to his savings, he/she didn't stop, reflect & say " This is great, I'm now a loanholder" !!

PMSSaver

I would agree wholeheartedly that the General Assembly has no legal responsibility to PMS savers, but just like the Government, it has a moral responsibility.

It was not the Presbyterian Church that caused the run on the PMS finances, it was the Government decision to bail out banks and financial institutions here in the UK and in Iceland. And it is an unjust and corrupt procrastination that has led to the situation today. The primary responsibility for solving this problem lies with our government. The lack of action over the past year, evident from the reports this week displays the complete inability of MLA's to govern and do what is right.

It is not 10,000 savers, it is 300,000 Presbyterians who will be voting in a few months (or not). And we will be motivated in our voting by what is done by then.
The church does have a moral responsibility to sell assets to relieve the suffering of PMS savers. The church has promoted and encouraged Presbyterians to save in the PMS. The General Assembly cannot get past the resolutions doing so. It has a moral responsibility. But first, it is the moral responsibility of the Government to act. Else we need a new government.......