NI Presbyterian mutual society, Short of funds for withdrawal?

Nomad25

"I am surprised with all the expertise here -and money at stake- that nobody has done this so far, AS IT APPEARS".

Majority of PMS savers are of the older generation and presbytarians = not used to kicking off, would rather bite their lips and rely on the lord/somebody more forthcoming to sort it. Also doing as their minister tells them.

I wish one of the senior citizens would start a rally group.

Also there aren't so many who participate in this thread.

Toastandbutter

thanks Five Alive, ok

I dont have time to spare. You might want to ask what rights you have under these to access info;-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/pdf/ukpga_20060046_en.pdf

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051455.htm

Toastandbutter

also, hope someone will call those lawyers tomorrow....?

;-)

crazymess

Nomad25 wrote: »

crazymess - this post really comes across as quite confrontational and aggressive, it could put a newbie off, although I'm sure you don't mean it to.

Yes you are right - I did not mean to seem to be aggressive - I'm merely asking the question - who is to blame for this fiasco? I have spent three months on this and to be quite honest - still don't know who is at fault!

Thats all I was saying!!

ToastandButter - thank you for coming on board - we really do need more help here? We need all the oldies and the newbies!!!!

We just want our money back!!!!!!

sickasaparrot

The date of the No.10 petition has been extended to 20th May !

john2009

Toastandbutter wrote: »

thanks Five Alive, ok

I dont have time to spare. You might want to ask what rights you have under these to access info;-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/pdf/ukpga_20060046_en.pdf

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051455.htm

Hi Toastandbutter,

I have tried talking to a few corporate lawyers in Manchester where I'm based. I have also spoken with two different firms commercial firms in Belfast.

There is no magic legal answer to this. The two pieces of legislation you have posted don't really add to what we have already been told. I am aware of the duties of directors under the 2006 Act and the reforms introduced by the 2005 Order (our Enterpise Act in England). To mount an action against the directors will be difficult given that we dont have any real evidence of any wrongdoing. We are relying on the administrator and his legal team to do a thorough investigation on our behalf and take action against the directors. I am assured by my Belfast office that this will be done but the findings will be confidential unless proceedings are issued. Even if we did issue proceedings against the directors, where an administrator is in place a court is likely to defer our action against the directors until the outcome of the administrator's investigation as he acts for us and is an officer of the court.

To mount any legal action we need information and evidence but the administrator is unable to give us this as it could compromise any proceedings he or DTI will take. The only way to get the information we need to push DTI for a public enquiry which they have the power to order. A lawyer in Belfast with experience in this area would be helpful. Any ideas?

expat68

Toastandbutter wrote: »

These may be worth looking up;-

Insolvency (NI) Order 2005
Companies Act 2006

ok - thanks for input and all input welcome.

I have spent a significant amount of time on the legal side including input from my contacts at professional accountancy firms and legal contacts. most of this has been covered in various posts by various people before but in summary...

Under companies act the directors seem to have complied with all requirements such as registration and filing of documents at the appropriate times. I believe the area of future focus will be section 170+ which covers directors responsibilities. This would pave the way for negligence claims BUT keep in mind that HBOS directors lost £10bn and no one is currently taking them to court. It is expensive and difficult to prove - will need some trigger from DETI or administrator to encourage people to go for it. Based on scheme rules and industrial and provident act the directors had quite a bit of scope for investments - they were less than transparent but didnt act outside their powers. They clearly didnt give full disclosure in the accounts but they didnt have to. Ethically very guilty , under law less clear cut.

On insolvency normally there would be much more transparency but the administrator has the best insolvency lawyer in belfast - there is a high court order in place preventing any disclosure which I am led to believe is watertight.

All in all a legal minefield - any specific ideas on previous case law which might be helpful very welcome.

john2009

I am just off the phone with a contact in my firm's belfast office (accountants do work late :cheesy: ). Anyway he says that DTI in Belfast have ordered public enquiries in the past. They are often started by a complaint from shareholders of companies. He didn't have any direct experience but recommended.... Ross Kemp aka the administrator's solicitor (see expat68's previous post :rotfl: ). Apparently he has been involved in a few DTI investigations in the past and knows his way around them. He may give us a steer in the right direction at least... we could ask the question in a very general way.

Expat68 - you said you spoke with him before. What do you think?

expat68

john2009 wrote: »

I am just off the phone with a contact in my firm's belfast office (accountants do work late :cheesy: ). Anyway he says that DTI in Belfast have ordered public enquiries in the past. They are often started by a complaint from shareholders of companies. He didn't have any direct experience but recommended.... Ross Kemp aka the administrator's solicitor (see expat68's previous post :rotfl: ). Apparently he has been involved in a few DTI investigations in the past and knows his way around them. He may give us a steer in the right direction at least... we could ask the question in a very general way.

Expat68 - you said you spoke with him before. What do you think?

Tricky - he was very clear that he was working for the administrator and anything of this nature he recommended independent legal advice. I think we need the administrators next missive on what is recoverable to get an independent view on scale of deficit rather than what we currently have which is directors view. I will investigate public enquiry process more next week as will be off line for a few days - if anyone is looking for something to do feel free. my frustration is that even findings of a public enquiry may not be made public (not sure how they came up with the description!)

expat68

expat68 wrote: »

I will investigate public enquiry process more next week as will be off line for a few days - if anyone is looking for something to do feel free. my frustration is that even findings of a public enquiry may not be made public (not sure how they came up with the description!)

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2005/ukpga_20050012_en_1

think this is the relevant legislation - Arlene Foster has the power it would appear.

1 Power to establish inquiry
(1) A Minister may cause an inquiry to be held under this Act in relation to a case where it appears to him that—
(a) particular events have caused, or are capable of causing, public concern, or
(b) there is public concern that particular events may have occurred.
(2) In this Act “Minister” means—
(a) a United Kingdom Minister;
(b) the Scottish Ministers;
(c) a Northern Ireland Minister;
and references to a Minister also include references to the National Assembly for Wales.
(3) References in this Act to an inquiry, except where the context requires otherwise, are to an inquiry under this Act.
2 No determination of liability

(1) An inquiry panel is not to rule on, and has no power to determine, any person’s civil or criminal liability.
(2) But an inquiry panel is not to be inhibited in the discharge of its functions by any likelihood of liability being inferred from facts that it determines or recommendations that it makes

Lots more besides but have a read - was wondering if NI ministers includes PCI ministers:D