Unfair Penalty Train Fare

musicmonkey1

The last couple of posters have missed the point I think. My daughter had left the train and could have just left the station without paying. Instead she went to the ticket office and asked if she could buy the return ticket she should have bought at Newhaven. The reward she got for her honesty was to be referred to another officer on the platform who promptly issued the penalty fare.

Does this seem fair or reasonable to anyone here? - regardless of any 'official rules'

dzug1

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

The last couple of posters have missed the point I think. My daughter had left the train and could have just left the station without paying. Instead she went to the ticket office and asked if she could buy the return ticket she should have bought at Newhaven. The reward she got for her honesty was to be referred to another officer on the platform who promptly issued the penalty fare.

Does this seem fair or reasonable to anyone here? - regardless of any 'official rules'

Not really missing the point - just trying to explain how some people could legitimately have paid on the train and confused her into thinking everyone could.

As to fair and reasonable, maybe not. But that's life - in general it doesn't have to be fair or reasonable. Legally - well she offered to pay before being PF'd. There might be a loophole there.

robt_2

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

The last couple of posters have missed the point I think.

Not at all - we are both on your 'side' - and condemning the poster who said it was her own fault etc

Voyager2002

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

I have now had a letter from Passenger focus stating they are treating my compalint as an 'appeals complaint' and that I can expect a reply by 1.01.2009!

I don't think leaving the penalty unpaid till then is a very good idea so I have decided to pay it under protest and without prejudice with a further letter to the train company management asking them to reconsider.

I'm not hopeful.

The whole thing feels like legalised theft.

Send the penalty fare people a note stating that the matter is in the hands of Passenger Focus (quote the reference number or whatever); tell them the date on which you expect a response; and state that you will make the payment when/if you are told to do so by Passenger Focus. If they don't accept that they will tell you, at which point it might be wise to pay.

Altarf

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

Newhaven is not always manned and the signs at the station state that tickets must be purchased at the first available opportunity. There is no 'black and white' 'do not board without a ticket' message or sign.

If that is the case I would get down the station and take some photos ASAP (being careful not to be mistaken for a terrorist)

It is a requirement of the Penalty Fares scheme that "Penalty fares warning notices must be displayed at every entrance to a CTA (compulsory ticket area) and at every penalty fares station so that at least one notice can be easily seen by anyone joining a penalty fares train (rule 4 of the Penalty Fares Rules). The best way to do this is to place a warning notice at every entrance to the station platforms. The notices must be prominent, easy to read, and easy to distinguish from other notices and the general surroundings. The notices must give the name of the operator, the circumstances in which a penalty fare may be charged and the amount of a penalty fare. To make sure that warning notices are consistent between different operators, they must be in line with a code of practice approved by the SRA."

The warning notice must -

• be noticeable, easy to read and easy to distinguish from other notices and from the general surroundings;
• explain clearly when a penalty fare may be charged;
• give the amount or maximum amount of any penalty fare;
• meet any requirement contained in the operator's approved penalty fares scheme; and
• follow a code of practice approved by the SRA for the purposes of this rule.

If they are not complying with the rules, then the Strategic Rail Authority can stop them issuing Penalty Fares - http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=9#a1039

chuckley

Voyager2002 wrote: »

Because she's honest.

well more fool her. thats why she got a the penalty.

dont know y ur complaining. u should be praising your lovely honest daughter.

but WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW, ive never heard of sum1 doing that before!

chuckley

robt wrote: »

I suggest you read the whole thread and do some research on the stations, rail company, and situation concerned, as your post shows that you have jumped in without knowing anything whatsoever.

daughter was off to college... didnt buy a ticket... managed to get through free but went back to buy a ticket (GOD KNOWS WHY) considering she was 'running late'... got a penalty fare and her parent is now on here stating its like 'legalised theft'.

do tell... what more is there to know?! other than 'buy a ticket before boarding... if not, pray u dont get caught or no barriers and run along saying u will never do it again...'

chuckley

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

The last couple of posters have missed the point I think. My daughter had left the train and could have just left the station without paying. Instead she went to the ticket office and asked if she could buy the return ticket she should have bought at Newhaven. The reward she got for her honesty was to be referred to another officer on the platform who promptly issued the penalty fare.

Does this seem fair or reasonable to anyone here? - regardless of any 'official rules'

not even the ticket guys would do that. they musta thought the girl was mad and thought 'well if she wants to pay then...'

meester

robt wrote: »

I suggest you read the whole thread and do some research on the stations, rail company, and situation concerned, as your post shows that you have jumped in without knowing anything whatsoever.

Oh really?

You want some proof?

http://www.southernrailway.com/stations.php?crs=NVN&submit.x=32&submit.y=6

Penalty fares: Penalty Fares apply to journeys from Newhaven Town station when travelling with:Southern Railway

And the office opening time:

TICKET Office hours

Weekdays: 06:15 to 12:50 Saturday: 06:15 to 12:50 Sunday: Unavailable


Whereas Newhaven Harbour station:

http://www.southernrailway.com/stations.php?crs=NVH&submit.x=27&submit.y=8

Penalty fares: Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Newhaven Harbour station.

And why?


TICKET Office hours

No information available


The difference that explains why one has penalty fares and the other doesn't?

That's right, there are no staff at the non-penalty fare station.

The difference between a penalty fare station and a non-penalty fare station is the presence of a ticket office. If you are at a penalty fare station and the ticket office is closed, then you will normally be let off (and in my experience station barriers are usually left open when ticket offices are unmanned) - the point being that even though you can buy a ticket from a machine, this is purely there as a convenience, and the machine will not be able to cope with all circumstances - dirty crumpled money, fifty pound notes, extension tickets, etc.

Bottom line is if the machines are broken, get in the queue.

On the other hand if the ticket office is closed, you'll probably be ok. On one Southern station I've been on that operates the same ticket office hours as Newhaven they sell permits for travel - you can put any amount of money in as part-payment, even 10p, and pay the balance later when there's a human being to deal with.

I think that generally the train companies operate on the principle that they won't force you to deal with machines, and although this might not be an absolute get-out (that the ticket office was closed), there is on the other hand NO EXCUSE for not buying a ticket when the office open.

The OP's daughter doesn't have a leg to stand on. What's her excuse? She was late and she didn't want to wait in the queue. Not good enough.

Don't believe me?

Check the website of the penalty fare appeals service.

http://www.ircas.co.uk/help-faq.html

If there is a queue at the ticket office can I board the train without a valid ticket?
No. It is your responsibilty to allow yourself reasonable time to buy a ticket before travelling. Automatic self-service ticket machines are provided at all stations as an additional method of buying a ticket. Tickets can also be bought in advance of travel from ticket offices, by phone or via the internet.

Bottom line: OP tell your daughter to buy herself a season ticket the day before, or from the guard on the train the day before, or whatever else.

meester

musicmonkey1 wrote: »

The last couple of posters have missed the point I think. My daughter had left the train and could have just left the station without paying. Instead she went to the ticket office and asked if she could buy the return ticket she should have bought at Newhaven. The reward she got for her honesty was to be referred to another officer on the platform who promptly issued the penalty fare.

Does this seem fair or reasonable to anyone here? - regardless of any 'official rules'

Yes she was honest, but that's not the point. The point is the 'official rules' are what they are following, and they are what count. Just pay the £20 and forget about it.